Hardwood/Tile Issue when remodeling. HELP

[Brian9955]

My wife and I are doing quite a bit of remodeling. We are doing a complete new kitchen and new floors. We planned to remove the old tile to place new tile and found it to be quite difficult. When we started to remove the tile, we noticed that the durock an thinset or concrete is stuck together so bad that we would need to remove both and place new durock throughout the house. Underneath the thinset/concrete and durock, there's hardwood floors. From what I can tell is that there may be nails every foot or so.

My options are:

1. Lay tile over tile
2. Remove and replace durock and thinset/concrete, then add new tile
3. Try to salvage the hardwood floor by removing the nails, add wood filler and refinish the floor.

I attached a picture of what I found. Also, keep in mind the kitchen cabinets are removed.

I spoke with someone I've known for a few years who has remodeled several homes in the area and has come across this several times. He highly recommends to remove the tile and refinish the floor. He said he's seen much worse. I'm considering this option cause it's like getting a floor for almost nothing. He believes that this is oak, which he says it's easy to get new wood planks to match.

One picture is the discovered floor and the other is taken to show the floor layers.

 

[Floorist]

Are you sure that isn't an old-fashioned mud bed? It would be cement with mesh for structure. If it is, you might be able to patch it and tile on top. It would be better to remove it but it can be a real bear to do.
I would probably try to salvage the hardwood. It would most likely up the value of the home.

 

[Brian9955]

Are you sure that isn't an old-fashioned mud bed? It would be cement with mesh for structure. If it is, you might be able to patch it and tile on top. It would be better to remove it but it can be a real bear to do.
I would probably try to salvage the hardwood. It would most likely up the value of the home.

The cement/thinset does have a metal mesh. We're hoping thinking about removing the cement and try to restore the floor. Have you done this before?

 

[Floorist]

The cement/thinset does have a metal mesh. We're hoping thinking about removing the cement and try to restore the floor. Have you done this before?

Yes, hopefully the installer did not do a good job. It is possible, just can be difficult.

 

[Brian9955]

Yes, hopefully the installer did not do a good job. It is possible, just can be difficult.

Do you happen to have any before and after pictures?

 

[Floorist]

Do you happen to have any before and after pictures?

Sorry, no. I seldom took pictures of jobs.

 

[Ernesto]

Yup, that is an old mud bed install. They lay asphalt paper over the substrate (hardwood floor in your case) then nail or staple the lath, then mud over it. It is possible the paper has protected the wood floor.

You would just need a sand and finish job after demo. Hopefully it is in good shape. Can you see underneath the floor at all like a basement or crawl space to check for rot or other damage??

 

[Brian9955]

Yup, that is an old mud bed install. They lay asphalt paper over the substrate (hardwood floor in your case) then nail or staple the lath, then mud over it. It is possible the paper has protected the wood floor.

You would just need a sand and finish job after demo. Hopefully it is in good shape. Can you see underneath the floor at all like a basement or crawl space to check for rot or other damage??

Yes there is. I could go under there and check it out if needed. Though I did have an inspection done and the inspector said everything was in very good shape. It did seem like removing the concrete was a bit difficult to remove, but did notice that the concrete wasn't really sticking to the hardwood floor. I tried this with a friend, however I think we were not doing it the right way. Perhaps we needed to chip away at the grout lines to break away the tile instead of trying to chip underneath the tile like a regular demo job. Also, typically how far apart are the nails nailed down from each other in your experience?

Do you happen to have any before and after pictures?

 

[Nick]

When i use to do a tile replacement , I used a roto zip with a concrete bit to remove the grout . [Fast].

 

[Brian9955]

Yup, that is an old mud bed install. They lay asphalt paper over the substrate (hardwood floor in your case) then nail or staple the lath, then mud over it. It is possible the paper has protected the wood floor.

You would just need a sand and finish job after demo. Hopefully it is in good shape. Can you see underneath the floor at all like a basement or crawl space to check for rot or other damage??

It sure is a pain to remove the mud bed from the floor. Tile not so much. From what I see so far, it does look like the paper has protected the floor. Any suggestions on the best way to remove the mortar? I started off using a demolition hammer, but am worried that I may damage the floor. We're looking at removing approx. 900 sq feet.

 

[highup]

It sure is a pain to remove the mud bed from the floor. Tile not so much. From what I see so far, it does look like the paper has protected the floor. Any suggestions on the best way to remove the mortar? I started off using a demolition hammer, but am worried that I may damage the floor. We're looking at removing approx. 900 sq feet.

Messy and dusty, but maybe using a masonry or diamond blade, cut straight lines 3/4 of the way through the mud bed every foot or so the same direction as the old floor lays to create a breaking point. Then pry up one length or section at a time. Be good to have one person holding a shop vac nozzle close to the saw blade and tap the filter clean real often. Messy so lot's of tape and plastic on the doorways. Good eye protection needed but you need that anyway for the tile removal.

 

[Brian9955]

Thanks, I'll give that a shot. I did remove a section of tile and used a regular hammer to beat some of the concrete off, then pry it off. Seems to do the trick. I think a sledge hammer to break up the concrete would work much better, but should I be concerned about damaging the floor this way?

 

[highup]

Thanks, I'll give that a shot. I did remove a section of tile and used a regular hammer to beat some of the concrete off, then pry it off. Seems to do the trick. I think a sledge hammer to break up the concrete would work much better, but should I be concerned about damaging the floor this way?

Just be sure the mud bed is consistent in depth so you don't go through it and into the wood floor. The reason to cut in the direction of the wood not across the grain.......... (easier to repair)
Ya might do one strip with the saw, and then break it up with the hammer. Maybe just hammer right on that cut line to fracture the final depth of the saw cut. I'm sure there is one method that will end up working better than another.

Show some photos once you get part of it up.

 

[highup]

I forgot to mention using an air chisel to get the tile loose. If you have access to one, this might help a lot. Not a $19 Harbor Freight, Chicago or Campbell Housefeld, but something good like a CP tool.
Face protection is an absolute must no matter the way you remove the tile.
Using a long bit, insert the chisel horizontally as a powerful wedge to pry the tile from the mud bed. Using heavy leather gloves, keep one hand directly over the area you are chiseling so it keeps the broken tile from flying all over the room. Go slow and start around 45 or 50 lbs of air pressure. Go higher if you need to.
If you have access to one and need some additional input on this , PM me for my phone number and we can chat.

 

[Brian9955]

I forgot to mention using an air chisel to get the tile loose. If you have access to one, this might help a lot. Not a $19 Harbor Freight, Chicago or Campbell Housefeld, but something good like a CP tool.
Face protection is an absolute must no matter the way you remove the tile.
Using a long bit, insert the chisel horizontally as a powerful wedge to pry the tile from the mud bed. Using heavy leather gloves, keep one hand directly over the area you are chiseling so it keeps the broken tile from flying all over the room. Go slow and start around 45 or 50 lbs of air pressure. Go higher if you need to.
If you have access to one and need some additional input on this , PM me for my phone number and we can chat.

Here's a couple of pics I took today and a small video of the hardwood floor being revealed. https://youtu.be/Y85j7bpBfh0 I'll PM you my info.

 

[Brian9955]

Here are the updates...

 

[highup]

Here are the updates...

I like that way it's progressing. You might ask a wood flooring finisher about removing or setting the nails. They certainly have their own preferences as to which way would cause the least damage, making their job to be less work and to turn out a better result. Pulling might produce chips and splinters when the nail comes up............ drilling off the heads and sinking the nail's shaft might cause other issues. High end 1/8 " drills, cobalt at least, or solid carbide if you can get them (machine shop suppliers/online) along with a center punch to get the drill centered might be pretty efficient once you get a routine going. Solid carbide bits aren't sold at Home Depot or Ace Hardware, but if you can find em, they can even drill through hardened metals like files... so those nails would be easy......... not fast, just easy.

 

[Brian9955]

@highup looks like I'm getting somewhere with removing the concrete. I'm finding that once remove the tile, I can hack away with the backend of the hammer where the grout lines and break up the concrete a little bit where the tile was, then pull away at the grout line area. Time consuming, but I plan to leave work about 45 minutes early this week to work about an hour and a half (don't want to be too loud after 6:30). Here's a before and after. I did about 1.5 hours worth of work here. Also, note a bit of the asphalt paper hasn't been removed.By the way, what motivated me to work on this more is that someone quoted me $2.50 a sq foot to do the demo and haul away!

 

[Ernesto]

Two fitty a ft is a smoking deal. I would bid at least five.

 

[Nick]

$2.50 is cheap , especially if they are taking it with them ..