Heating Loss in LVT vs. Carpet

[ndmuscutt]

I live in the upper Pacific Northwest and, though it doesn't get crazy cold in the winter, heating was costing us about $450-$500/month. Last year we installed ductless heat pumps, one head on each end of the 2800sq. ft. house. This was very helpful and gives us just enough heating but not much more. A couple of times we had to turn on the electric heating again just to take the edge off.

Here is my issue. We have a carpeted floor throughout the house, but my parents have generously offered to replace the carpet with Luxury Vinyl plank. The planking comes with it's own underlay backing, but the planking is only 5mm thick. My concern is that, once we replace the carpet with LVT, we are going to negate the gains that we've made with installing the heat pumps.

I have called the manufacturers of the LVT and tried googling R-value comparisons between carpet and LVT and it doesn't seem that anyone really has a clue when it comes to what heating losses we might experience, so I am hoping that someone on this forum might be able to give me some advice as to whether I should keep the carpet or go with the LVT. Or, perhaps, there is some other better option. My other issue is that the price point has to be reasonable. The LVT we are looking at is from Home Depot, and is called MSI Ardenmore Oak 7.63 in. W x 48.75 in. L Rigid Core Click Lock Luxury Vinyl Tile Flooring and is $1.79/sq. ft. Our home is single level and we'd be replacing about 1900sq. ft.

I appreciate any help. I really don't want my kids to be freezing at night again. Thanks so much!

 

[MikeAntonetti]

Basically an insulation specialist question, one who would know R values of material. I think neither are very high. What’s under crawl space?

 

[ndmuscutt]

It is a crawl space underneath.

 

[highup]

With a crawl space, you have insulation unlike a concrete floor.
..... Well hopefully you have insulation. Something that thin seems like a glued down product. That would require an extremely smooth and flat floor or else the planks will look like the waviness of a country road on a hot day.
I'm not talking 1-in up and down waves I'm talking 1/8 inch up and down waves. If the planking is to look like wood, then any minor waves, cracks, dips or high spots will show and the plank will not look like what it's supposed to look like.
You won't run into the prep work with carpet like you do with any vinyl plank flooring and you won't have echo, and it will insulate. I know there are specifications out there but I don't know where to look for them.
Possibly just go simple and look up all values of wood, carpet etc. Google can be your friend if you work things correctly.
They're also might be home heating calculators that you can use were you just fill in the blanks with your square footage, insulation numbers and your wall and floor surfaces. Not saying it's not available, but I know it's been measured. This should in my opinion be something that you can find. Maybe a heating website maybe some kind of green website that focuses on cost savings and efficiency.
Or just tell them you want some new carpet.

 

[highup]

https://www.homeflooringpros.com/how-flooring-can-increase-the-insulation-efficiency-in-your-home/

 

[highup]

https://www.houseneeds.com/learning...-heating/flooring-r-value-different-materials

 

[C.J.]

That’s a lot of money to spend on IMO a mediocre product. I see disappointment in your future with this product. How about you do a room or two to see how you like it, how it performs and how the temp is with it before you splurge for the whole house. Or save up a little coin and wait until you can get Lifeproof. I’ll at least endorse that product.

 

[highup]

That’s a lot of money to spend on IMO a mediocre product. I see disappointment in your future with this product. How about you do a room or two to see how you like it, how it performs and how the temp is with it before you splurge for the whole house. Or save up a little coin and wait until you can get Lifeproof. I’ll at least endorse that product.

I totally agree. It would be like buying a two-door Yugo instead of the better option four-door Wego. No wonder they went out of business.

 

[C.J.]

I bid a Honda dealership for a commercial job through HD. Had it set up with a quality carpet tile. Of course they crapped their pants over the price. Oh well, life goes on. Couple months later the salesperson calls me up and asks about labor rate if they switch to a glue down broadloom. I tell them it will be the same. We show up the day of the install and the salesperson switched them to a 20 oz rag carpet, but the manufacturer says it’s rated for commercial so the dildo sold it. Needless to say that stuff was fuzzing and raveling within 6 months. The cleaners vacuum would catch snags and the carpet would run and look like crap. I called the salesman out for selling that cheap crap and his response was we should have refused the installation. Really, is that what you want us to start doing? Because I’ll walk on over half of your jobs in the future if that’s what you’re telling me I should have done. Think very carefully about what you say next

The whole point of this rambling is just because HD or the manufacturer says something is of such n such quality or is rated for foot traffic in an elephant cage, you gotta remember that’s marketing. Their job is to sell. If the product fails it’s not their fault because they didn’t make it or install it. They just sell it and if it fails they will be happy to sell you more flooring. Ultimately you will be the one left holding the bag. Lucky for you I’ve polished many turds for HD and can advise you that that product is a mediocre ball of dookie. And you should avoid it like an off ramp beggar with their hand out.

 

[Mark Brown]

I have adopted a philosophy that seems to work rather well for me personally and this is what it is.

If you are retarded, that's on you. I have my own problems to worry about.

I am a labor contractor. I get contracted to do the stupid things you dream up. After enough time arguing about it with you and getting nowhere I am just going to give up arguing. You want that glue down vinyl plan installed on the 98% RH concrete?? That's great. Do not expect me to help you or for that matter give a flying fluck about it when the piper comes a calling. That was a you decision. This is the benefit of working for shops you see, while they like to pretend everything is in fact our fault and problem it is actually a very limited response that can be attributed to the labour. At least here in Canada. For the most part the party of "independent sub-contractor" is truly just a fancy way of saying "worker" from a legal stand point. It gets a little grey however, that is about the gist of it. See, being defined this way is to stipulate that one really has no control over the pricing, process, materials and the like that are integrated into a job and well that about sums up the sub contractor role. So I just merrily whistle a tune and do the stupid things you want me to do laughing all the way.

.... now on my shit, that's a different story.

 

[ndmuscutt]

I have adopted a philosophy that seems to work rather well for me personally and this is what it is.

If you are retarded, that's on you. I have my own problems to worry about.

I am a labor contractor. I get contracted to do the stupid things you dream up. After enough time arguing about it with you and getting nowhere I am just going to give up arguing. You want that glue down vinyl plan installed on the 98% RH concrete?? That's great. Do not expect me to help you or for that matter give a flying fluck about it when the piper comes a calling. That was a you decision. This is the benefit of working for shops you see, while they like to pretend everything is in fact our fault and problem it is actually a very limited response that can be attributed to the labour. At least here in Canada. For the most part the party of "independent sub-contractor" is truly just a fancy way of saying "worker" from a legal stand point. It gets a little grey however, that is about the gist of it. See, being defined this way is to stipulate that one really has no control over the pricing, process, materials and the like that are integrated into a job and well that about sums up the sub contractor role. So I just merrily whistle a tune and do the stupid things you want me to do laughing all the way.

.... now on my ####, that's a different story.

Is this supposed to be some kind of amusing anecdote? I've been on a lot of forums and read a lot of stupid and unhelpful things posted just to make people feel that they've got some superior wisdom. Thank you, Mark Brown, for another example of this. I just wish you hadn't hijacked my thread.

Now to the others above, thanks for some actual wisdom and not just writing to hear yourself talk.

 

[Mark Brown]

Sorry about that. I thought i was in another thread with Chris. My brain is good at floors, not the internet.

My bad.

As for your conundrum, what you would like to know is that any and all insulation is just a factor of air gapping. Carpet and pad would be much more suited to this than vinyl plank. You will not find useful information in this regard as far as R value and the like however completely anecdotally, I had the opposite where in I had vinyl, laminate and carpet installed with hydronic radiant heating and in that order, they insulated from worst to best against the heat gain. I think the inverse would be true in your situation.

 

[C.J.]

Mark is my brother from another mother. I just wish he would quit touching my drum set. Even though his post didn’t help the OP, I know what he meant.

How about looking into a thermal barrier underlayment to help with reducing heat loss. In that case you would want to get an LVP or SPC without an attached pad and then use the thermal barrier underlayment. Just as a general rule you will want to be about $3/sq ft or above if you want to get a decent LVP/ SPC. Anything below $3/ sq ft will be iffy. The underlayment cost will be in addition to the $3/ sq ft. Not sure how handy you are but these floating floors are pretty DIY friendly. That could help offset the additional cost of getting a decent product and underlayment.

 

[Mark Brown]

On the contrary side of the argument however is that seeing as nothing you install will in fact create anything with an R value that would really matter, and the fact that most of the loss of heat in this instance is from radiant heat loss between your warmer house and crawl space in which case a reflective barrier may prove more beneficial than any insulation of carpet and pad.

The thing with floor coverings and heat/warmth is that most of it is misunderstood. What people perceive as warmth in their flooring is in fact just an inhibited ability to conduct/transfer heat. Carpet feels warm underfoot because of its inability to conduct heat directly from you to the substrate, this is due to the large amount of air between the surfaces and the fact that conduction only occurs when objects are in direct contact. Vinyl on the other hand is a much better agent of conducting heat being that it is solid and in direct contact. Tile, which is why everyone always says their tile are cold are bonded to the substrate they rest on and are typically non-porous stone or composites and conduct heat quite well. The purpose of my rambling is that when you use a laser thermal probe, in the same environment they are all the same relative temperature. None of them works well as an insulator. For this reason, I would lend agreement to what Chris is saying and look at a radiant barrier and go with plank. There would be your best bet at keeping the heat where it belongs and where you live.

 

[ndmuscutt]

Sorry about that. I thought i was in another thread with Chris. My brain is good at floors, not the internet.

My bad.

As for your conundrum, what you would like to know is that any and all insulation is just a factor of air gapping. Carpet and pad would be much more suited to this than vinyl plank. You will not find useful information in this regard as far as R value and the like however completely anecdotally, I had the opposite where in I had vinyl, laminate and carpet installed with hydronic radiant heating and in that order, they insulated from worst to best against the heat gain. I think the inverse would be true in your situation.

Wow. OK. Well, now I feel bad. Sorry, bro. Just seen too many off-topic comments on so many other forums. My apologies. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Mark Brown]

It's ok. I do not take offence to someone's misdirected vitriol thanks to my mistake, If I did I would be a hypocrite..... which to be fair I am, but not right now
I would just up and say we call it even.
I really did think this was not this thread. I don't need to spew all over you, there are tonnes of threads just for that lol

 

[Mark Brown]

One more thing, I frequent a lot of Honda (Integra) forms, I know the pain you speak of. Oddly enough, there is not any of that here. Well there is, but we keep it behind closed doors.

Just for the record, after I posted my tirade about floor coverings in fact all being the same temperature I went out and got my laser thermo and measured them, I have hardwood, vinyl, plank, carpet and ceramic within a 12 foot radius of each other and they all measured exactly 79.5 F so if that makes you feel any better about your choice, I am glad I miss posted and could offer my advice.

I learned a lot about thermals and I was doing radiant heat in my own home. There are a lot of misconceptions when it comes to heating loss and the like and on top of that there is a lot of marketing out there that is simply designed to confused the life out of you.

Best of luck~!!