Questions about current practices in Tiling

[Kakdiesel1]

Question about common practices in tiling for the Pros? Do the Pros not butter the bottom of tiles anymore? Is it true that not leveling the floor won’t help with lippage? Is tiling over old trowel Thinset common?
I’m asking because I thought I was paying a tile company a lot of money for a super flat floor. I said whatever it took for money. Paid a lot of money for beautiful 5 foot hardwood tile planks and I find out Day two that the job was subcontracted. Had one young 24yo kid hard worker but I was shocked and disappointed that I wasn’t told the original tilers SC it out.
I have broken tile, uneven flooring, grout lines too large. Cracked tile. Unfinished grout, over grouted. The kid angle grinded all the long cuts because they didn’t have a cutter so all the wall cuts have to be grouted out to the waves.
again the tiles weren’t buttered and the spots that had little thinset on the tile, he would get a wad of thinset, slap in in that area and twirl it around with the trowel.
lastly, all that dust from grinding he did right outside the front door. White powder embedded in walls driveway and all the white water he dumped in the flower bed. Looks like a white powder bomb exploded in front.
they told me there is no way to get a flat floor because tiles aren’t completely flat. They used the wedges and t brackets. I asked if self leveling would have helped they said no.
they had to order 16 boxes of tile to redo it but I don’t know if I have the confidence in them. Am I over thinking or is all this common.
I believe in paying what it takes to get a great job. But, I feel I overpaid now because who knows if the tile place got a kick l, the original co got a kick and the SC co got a small amount and did the least amount of prep. So I was told the job was done with these pics and this was just a fraction.
Thanks sorry so long.

 

[C.J.]

Subcontracting out the labor is a common practice yet it sounds and looks like you have several valid complaints. I would talk to whomever you signed the contract with and bring up all of your issues to them and give them an opportunity to correct the issues. Total replacement? Cleaning reimbursement for the dust and the mess in the yard? Hopefully you still haven’t paid in full yet and/ or used a CC if you have.

 

[Mark Brown]

That is a sad tale of sorrow.
Here are some fine points to consider...
If you don't start with a flat floor, you don't end with a flat floor.
Lash clips are a joke when used by most people and will result in hollow tile. They do work, but they aren't a magic fairy that makes tile setting easy.
Back buttering tile is not considered optional, it is a requirement of the TCNA installation instructions.
If you are dry grinding rips, you are a hack. Full stop. Get a wet saw.
Tile dust contains silica. It can contain things like lead and other toxins, taking dirt from the ground and making it into things and the pulverizing those things and making them airborne is bad.
Obviously broke tile are not ok. What more should I say?
That nightmare around the door casing, well, you wouldn't make it out of my house alive.
I just spent all weekend installing 1200 sqft of 24x24 tile and right now I am mad... because I would have been done a lot sooner if I just went and made that mess.

Doesn't matter they subbed out the work, whomever you bought the job from is on the hook for it. All you need to do is threaten some litigation and voila problem solved.

Best of luck

 

[Tile Tom]

Yeah, that's a pretty shoddy job if I ever seen one.
I'm a little surprised that a "tile contractor/shop" delivered such poor quality. If that's your only job you do, I would expect quality!
Like stated above, back buttering is industry standard. Not owning the proper tools for installation is a big red flag. A wet saw, grinder, nib's, score & snap, rubber mallet, level, and a whole mess of hand tools are on every tile job I walk into. The leveling systems are more for the DIY folks. They only work with plenty of mortar under the tile and back buttering. Even then you have to be certain you're getting 100% of the tile intact with the mortar you comb out so no hollow spots....

The only thing I can agree with on this job is that the tile aren't flat from the factory. Wood look tile are just about always bowed, twisted, cupped and out of square. Just the way they are. And they get worse the narrower the rip cut.
So that said, you can't expect a 100% perfectly flat install... BUT Any good tile guy can get it pretty damn close.

As for the self leveler it's hard to judge if it needed it by the pictures. I'm going to guess probably not and any good tile guy could achieve a great job with a bucket of mud!

Wish you the best getting this project straightened out.

 

[Kakdiesel1]

That is a sad tale of sorrow.
Here are some fine points to consider...
If you don't start with a flat floor, you don't end with a flat floor.
Lash clips are a joke when used by most people and will result in hollow tile. They do work, but they aren't a magic fairy that makes tile setting easy.
Back buttering tile is not considered optional, it is a requirement of the TCNA installation instructions.
If you are dry grinding rips, you are a hack. Full stop. Get a wet saw.
Tile dust contains silica. It can contain things like lead and other toxins, taking dirt from the ground and making it into things and the pulverizing those things and making them airborne is bad.
Obviously broke tile are not ok. What more should I say?
That nightmare around the door casing, well, you wouldn't make it out of my house alive.
I just spent all weekend installing 1200 sqft of 24x24 tile and right now I am mad... because I would have been done a lot sooner if I just went and made that mess.

Doesn't matter they subbed out the work, whomever you bought the job from is on the hook for it. All you need to do is threaten some litigation and voila problem solved.

Best of luck

Thanks for the info. So the contractor Owner got involved and looked at the floor. He said it all needs to be ripped out. He got with the Tile store and ordered all new tile. At first he said the tile may not be able to get straight and I may have to pick out new tile.
then later he said he ordered the same tile and he found someone that said they could get it straight. He still hasn’t told me who it was so I could at least vet them. Nor do I have a good feeling they will flatten the floor first. They already layer tile over old thinset. Just a hallway and a couple bathrooms at first but now the whole floor will have thinset.
I’m thinking with your info I may have to demand they have the right tools and use the right practices. Ie, grind the floor down. Use wet saw and at least butter the tile. the tile is Porcelain and heavy and they used a tile cutter before. So I’m sure that’s why tiles are cracked and chipped.
I believe in paying for quality is why I thought paying double would have worked out. It’s just hard finding Good contractors in my area.

 

[Kakdiesel1]

Yeah, that's a pretty shoddy job if I ever seen one.
I'm a little surprised that a "tile contractor/shop" delivered such poor quality. If that's your only job you do, I would expect quality!
Like stated above, back buttering is industry standard. Not owning the proper tools for installation is a big red flag. A wet saw, grinder, nib's, score & snap, rubber mallet, level, and a whole mess of hand tools are on every tile job I walk into. The leveling systems are more for the DIY folks. They only work with plenty of mortar under the tile and back buttering. Even then you have to be certain you're getting 100% of the tile intact with the mortar you comb out so no hollow spots....

The only thing I can agree with on this job is that the tile aren't flat from the factory. Wood look tile are just about always bowed, twisted, cupped and out of square. Just the way they are. And they get worse the narrower the rip cut.
So that said, you can't expect a 100% perfectly flat install... BUT Any good tile guy can get it pretty damn close.

As for the self leveler it's hard to judge if it needed it by the pictures. I'm going to guess probably not and any good tile guy could achieve a great job with a bucket of mud!

Wish you the best getting this project straightened out.

 

[Mark Brown]

It is hard finding good contractors everywhere. Our industry, and a lot of trade work, constantly suffers from "low bid" mentality and stagnation. Couple that with a whole generation leaving the labor force right now and not a lot of folks coming up behind them and the fact that it is insanely busy and you have the mess we are in.

There are a few things that could have made that job a lot easier and better.

If they actually are going to remove the tile and do it again, there is an extensive amount of work to be done, so likely they will grind that floor because the old mortar bed will have to be removed.

The floor does not have to be laser flat for a good installation, but it does help immensely, especially with a longer tile

Looks to me like they used 1/8 inch grout joints. That in itself is a mistake with a tile like that. Consumers all want super thin joints, tile manufacturers and installers... well not always. With a long tile, you will have bow and warp unless they are rectified. Those are not. Tell them to open up those joints a little bit. 3/16 or even a 1/4 inch would allow for a lot more room to maneuver and would aid in hiding a lot of the lipping and oddities. I know 3/16 is not much bigger than 1/8 in actual size however it is 50% larger in scale and allows for a lot more love.

 

[Kakdiesel1]

Thanks for the info, I just replied above with the update. They Owner finally got involved and will rip the floor out. Says they will be hunting to get the floor straight.
question though. For thick heavy porcelain tile, do you use a tile rip cutter? If so I see people on YouTube using them but talking about different size cutting wheels.
thanks just trying to get as much firepower as I can.

 

[Mark Brown]

Scribes or "rip cutters" are perfectly acceptable tools. Dry grinders are not.

I find a lot of time with longer tile i toss my scribe in favor or a wet saw because it just does not love me. I do not own an expensive scribe that is over 3 feet so I expect my frugality is my loss here.

 

[Kakdiesel1]

It is hard finding good contractors everywhere. Our industry, and a lot of trade work, constantly suffers from "low bid" mentality and stagnation. Couple that with a whole generation leaving the labor force right now and not a lot of folks coming up behind them and the fact that it is insanely busy and you have the mess we are in.

There are a few things that could have made that job a lot easier and better.

If they actually are going to remove the tile and do it again, there is an extensive amount of work to be done, so likely they will grind that floor because the old mortar bed will have to be removed.

The floor does not have to be laser flat for a good installation, but it does help immensely, especially with a longer tile

Looks to me like they used 1/8 inch grout joints. That in itself is a mistake with a tile like that. Consumers all want super thin joints, tile manufacturers and installers... well not always. With a long tile, you will have bow and warp unless they are rectified. Those are not. Tell them to open up those joints a little bit. 3/16 or even a 1/4 inch would allow for a lot more room to maneuver and would aid in hiding a lot of the lipping and oddities. I know 3/16 is not much bigger than 1/8 in actual size however it is 50% larger in scale and allows for a lot more love.

Thanks for the info. Yes it is 1/8”. I had stated I wanted as small as possible in warranty so however that needed to happen that price wasn’t a concern. I also said if they can’t get small grout lines or can’t get it flat I didn’t want it. The assured me they could. Believe me I stress this probably over 10 times if everyone is sure it could be done. For the price I paid in Labor I assumed they knew that tile could lay flat. I found out later the tile is not rectified. Funny part is the tile contractor owner ordered the same tile after he told me it may not be able to lay flat.
it’s a process I’ll tell ya. All I wanted is to pay a Pro what he deserves to get some quality and use the proper tools and techniques.

 

[Kakdiesel1]

Scribes or "rip cutters" are perfectly acceptable tools. Dry grinders are not.

I find a lot of time with longer tile i toss my scribe in favor or a wet saw because it just does not love me. I do not own an expensive scribe that is over 3 feet so I expect my frugality is my loss here.

The Porcelain tile is 5 feet long. They said a way saw was too expensive and they didn’t have a Rip cutter long enough. Why the front of my house looks like Christmas in Florida.
I guess if I HAD to have a certain tile then as I learn from you guys then it may not lay flat. Ie rectified tile etc.
But, in my case my main concern was small grout lines because of the hardwood look and flat and whatever it took with the price. They assured me this tile could achieve that.
thanks for chiming in.

 

[C.J.]

In order to use a wet saw for those rip cuts an installer would need to own a big ass bridge saw or monkey around with repositioning the tile a couple times on a standard tile saw. Big pain in the ass so I would use a grinder myself to rip those long tiles. I would also R/R the baseboards so any inconsistencies in my rip cuts would be hidden under/ behind the base so you would never know. I also would have to take care as to where I cut so the dust wouldn’t waft back into the house. The dumping of tile and grout water in the yard and leaving a mess was just lazy.

Another sad fact of the flooring world is a lot of installers don’t know what they have in store for their job until they show up that day. Then when they show up they’re just giving it their best shot because nobody wants to say no and walk away. There’s repercussions to saying no and walking away. That’s just a fact for a lot of installers. You want someone who specifically has experience with those long ass tiles. I certainly wouldn’t want that job even with 1/4” grout joints

And yet another sad fact is that a lot of shop owners, and just about anybody I guess, don’t say no to anything. That guy is making bank off of you, I guarantee it. And he’s making the original installer pay for all the new tile as well. Trust me, he’s not losing a penny. I used to work for a shop that didn’t say no to anything even if I told them the job was a complete sack and they didn’t want to touch it with a 10’ pole. The owner would tell me ‘I didn’t build my business by saying NO’. Then to make matters worse, the majority of his installers sucked. Believe me I hated that job.

Best of luck. Maybe you can get Mark to fly down and take care of you. He certainly could use some sunshine.

 

[Mark Brown]

Call me crazy... but if you don't own the gear to install large tile, don't install large tile.

I mean hell.... that job would pay enough to go buy a large bed tile saw and scribe. I do tile less than 10% of my income a year and I own 2 wet saws, a ring saw, 4 scribes..... there is no excuse.

As to the OP's concerns of grout sizing and flatness... well flatness is not something that is ever in question. Finisnes floors need to be flat. Full stop.
As for the grout sizing, i guarantee the tile manufacturer has a minimum size requirement and I can almost guarantee it is larger than 1/8 an inch. You cannot always have what you want. Contractors lie, or at the least they mislead either from ignorance or possibly from malice... but there are not a lot of them willing to look a client in the eye and tell them the cold hard truth. Truth hurts.

 

[C.J.]

Call me crazy... but if you don't own the gear to install large tile, don't install large tile.

I mean hell.... that job would pay enough to go buy a large bed tile saw and scribe. I do tile less than 10% of my income a year and I own 2 wet saws, a ring saw, 4 scribes..... there is no excuse.

As to the OP's concerns of grout sizing and flatness... well flatness is not something that is ever in question. Finisnes floors need to be flat. Full stop.
As for the grout sizing, i guarantee the tile manufacturer has a minimum size requirement and I can almost guarantee it is larger than 1/8 an inch. You cannot always have what you want. Contractors lie, or at the least they mislead either from ignorance or possibly from malice... but there are not a lot of them willing to look a client in the eye and tell them the cold hard truth. Truth hurts.

I don’t disagree with a single thing you wrote but that’s just not how a lot of the industry thinks. Many outfits have the mentality of make the sale and we’ll figure out the rest as we go. That’s how business works, nothing happens until a sale is made. Can’t say they are wrong either cus they have been trained to think and operate that way. Think about it, how many customers out there will keep shopping around until the finally run into someone that tells them what they want to hear? How many times does a sales person have to get fired for not turning numbers until they get tired of getting fired and decide to start turning numbers? I’ve seen it first hand so I know it’s true.

 

[Mark Brown]

I don’t disagree with a single thing you wrote but that’s just not how a lot of the industry thinks. Many outfits have the mentality of make the sale and we’ll figure out the rest as we go. That’s how business works, nothing happens until a sale is made. Can’t say they are wrong either cus they have been trained to think and operate that way. Think about it, how many customers out there will keep shopping around until the finally run into someone that tells them what they want to hear? How many times does a sales person have to get fired for not turning numbers until they get tired of getting fired and decide to start turning numbers? I’ve seen it first hand so I know it’s true.

.....the worst part man, I dont disagree with you either

 

[Kakdiesel1]

Call me crazy... but if you don't own the gear to install large tile, don't install large tile.

I mean hell.... that job would pay enough to go buy a large bed tile saw and scribe. I do tile less than 10% of my income a year and I own 2 wet saws, a ring saw, 4 scribes..... there is no excuse.

As to the OP's concerns of grout sizing and flatness... well flatness is not something that is ever in question. Finisnes floors need to be flat. Full stop.
As for the grout sizing, i guarantee the tile manufacturer has a minimum size requirement and I can almost guarantee it is larger than 1/8 an inch. You cannot always have what you want. Contractors lie, or at the least they mislead either from ignorance or possibly from malice... but there are not a lot of them willing to look a client in the eye and tell them the cold hard truth.

I don’t disagree with a single thing you wrote but that’s just not how a lot of the industry thinks. Many outfits have the mentality of make the sale and we’ll figure out the rest as we go. That’s how business works, nothing happens until a sale is made. Can’t say they are wrong either cus they have been trained to think and operate that way. Think about it, how many customers out there will keep shopping around until the finally run into someone that tells them what they want to hear? How many times does a sales person have to get fired for not turning numbers until they get tired of getting fired and decide to start turning numbers? I’ve seen it first hand so I know it’s true.

I agree it’s gotta be painful to be great at your craft and people nickel and dime. Or you waste your time giving estimates when they go with whoever is lower. Quality second

I agree it’s gotta be painful to be great at your craft and people nickel and dime. Or you waste your time giving estimates when they go with whoever is lower. Quality second.