Stainmaster LVT big problems

[Gump]

My brother installed this self stick tile over concrete which had Henry 565 self leveling underlayment poored with Henry 564 floor pro primer. Also used Henry 430 commercial tile vct adhesive under the tile. We are having a little argument about the adhesive he used since I asked if him if it was the correct adhesive to begin with because that was not what the box store said to use with these tiles, which is the argument caused by the fact the tiles are not sticking correctly on the edges or corners. They are lifting up at the corners or edges. Not all but more than half. It's 18x18 and 12x12 tiles. The 12x12's seem to have the corners lifting up problem more than the 18x18's which the whole sides of some of the 18x18 are lifting up. He also used a slightly notched tool to apply the adhesive which I thought this adhesive was supposed to be applied smooth. I'm in Northeast Ohio where it is cold but the room is heated. We have extra heat in the room because he said it needs to warm up to dry the adhesive. He said he did allow it to dry. It's not so much that the tiles aren't sticking, it's the corners are lifting up. They usually break when trying to remove them because they're stuck everywhere else. He did use a 75# roller. I just want to know how to fix this mess?

[/IMG]

 

[DarisMulkin]

I'm willing to bet there is a moisture problem. The vapor wants out and the seams and corners are the easiest route. Was there moisture tests taken before the install?
I have the same problem only with commercial vct. I knew better than not to take tests and didn't. Shame on me for that one.
Usually using vct adhesive is a back up to the peel n stick.
Daris

 

[rugaddict]

a heat gun will make any vinyl tile lay down---be careful not to scorch them--it will do nothing for moisture in a slab though

 

[Gump]

Thanks, so what are the options when there is moisture in a slab?

 

[Ken]

I tend to lean on the side of hiring a professional but the biggest mistake was not using the manufacturers recommended adhesive, not using the recommended trowel also helped. I believe mapei makes a rollable moisture barrier for those other issues

 

[QCI777]

My brother installed this self stick tile over concrete which had Henry 565 self leveling underlayment poored with Henry 564 floor pro primer. Also used Henry 430 commercial tile vct adhesive under the tile. We are having a little argument about the adhesive he used since I asked if him if it was the correct adhesive to begin with because that was not what the box store said to use with these tiles, which is the argument caused by the fact the tiles are not sticking correctly on the edges or corners. They are lifting up at the corners or edges. Not all but more than half. It's 18x18 and 12x12 tiles. The 12x12's seem to have the corners lifting up problem more than the 18x18's which the whole sides of some of the 18x18 are lifting up. He also used a slightly notched tool to apply the adhesive which I thought this adhesive was supposed to be applied smooth. I'm in Northeast Ohio where it is cold but the room is heated. We have extra heat in the room because he said it needs to warm up to dry the adhesive. He said he did allow it to dry. It's not so much that the tiles aren't sticking, it's the corners are lifting up. They usually break when trying to remove them because they're stuck everywhere else. He did use a 75# roller. I just want to know how to fix this mess?

[/IMG]

On LVT= Luxury Vinyl Tile we use a pressure sensitive glue! The Henry 430 is for VCT Tile glue the difference is vinyl competition tile floor they are two different things. The reason it says competitions is because that product has different ingredients in it through out the tile along with vinyl. LVT is just solid vinyl backing pretty much some with aluminum oxide on the top of it. He could have used the Henry's 422 if you want Henry's! If you ever get any flooring weather carpet vinyl or tile it is important to go by manufactures recommendation unless you know for sure of other products that are the same thing.
If you need to take these tiles up you need to get a regular hair blow dryer and a putty knife and heat them up and slowly pop them up. Don't use a machine it will only melt glue, and you will have a worse mess. It will take patience and time, but worth the fix! After taking up tiles you need to remove all glue from concrete if glue doesn't scrape up you need to get a adhesive remover. You can get it at a flooring supply store. OH I think uses south land flooring supply . I'm In , IN! Once you got it all up always do a moisture check glue will not stick with too high of moisture. If too high of moisture you will have to get a sealer to seal floor! Then check again after sealed because you may need another coat of sealer. Always check moisture for all concrete flooring out here. Because we live in a high moisture state! Once all sealed no moisture coming through concrete floor. Apply recommended glue which is usually a pressure sensitive glue for LVT! The glue bucket will say for LVT! you have to use the right notch trowel to apply it onto floor, let dry completely. That usually takes a hour or so. Check glue bucket for drying time. Make sure old glue is off tiles as well.
Then just start Relaying the tiles starting from the entry tile working toward inside of room. Do not walk on glue or allow any foreign debri or dust on floor to contaminate glue, that will cause tile not to stick. Always start from outside going into room.
Usually before applying any tile you should sq off room and cut off whatever needed to start with to have same sz boarder tile around in rm. so you won't end up with gaps or a sliver at the other end. Roll it with at least a 75 lb roller. This floor can never be steam cleaned. It's a beautiful floor I have it in my kitchen.
CAUTION NOTE: if any vinyl floor was down before all flooring all glues has be removed. And clean the floor and primer seal it. Never lay this floor over any existing vinyl or any prior glue from carpet or vinyl that can cause a chemical reaction and cause the pressure sensitive glue not to work.
Well good luck hope this helps have a great day.

 

[QCI777]

My brother installed this self stick tile over concrete which had Henry 565 self leveling underlayment poored with Henry 564 floor pro primer. Also used Henry 430 commercial tile vct adhesive under the tile. We are having a little argument about the adhesive he used since I asked if him if it was the correct adhesive to begin with because that was not what the box store said to use with these tiles, which is the argument caused by the fact the tiles are not sticking correctly on the edges or corners. They are lifting up at the corners or edges. Not all but more than half. It's 18x18 and 12x12 tiles. The 12x12's seem to have the corners lifting up problem more than the 18x18's which the whole sides of some of the 18x18 are lifting up. He also used a slightly notched tool to apply the adhesive which I thought this adhesive was supposed to be applied smooth. I'm in Northeast Ohio where it is cold but the room is heated. We have extra heat in the room because he said it needs to warm up to dry the adhesive. He said he did allow it to dry. It's not so much that the tiles aren't sticking, it's the corners are lifting up. They usually break when trying to remove them because they're stuck everywhere else. He did use a 75# roller. I just want to know how to fix this mess?

[/IMG]

Your brother probably tried to save you some money, and that's a cool thing. But whenever you get flooring from lowes or me nard or home depot they never really tell the consumer all the aspects needed to get it done right. Always check manufacturers website or call the. FYI! Dont let this be a anger match between ya, it's a learning lesson to remember like a lot of installers have learned. So be forgiving. Lol

 

[LeePelletier]

I hate self-adhesive products. They are more apt to have problems than conventional products. Now that I have that off my chest . . .

Now that a conventional VCT adhesive has been used, it may be difficult to remove these without damaging them. So we are probably beyond the point where we can "fix" the original installation errors without removing and rebuying the entire floor.

Given that, here's an unofficial fix. Try super-glue on the corners and then weight them down for a while. (You might need to borrow a shelf full of books from the library.) If the superglue is not adhering, then epoxy. When it comes time to remove the floor, lot's of work.

You won't find this in any installation instructions. But some manufacturers will "unofficially" suggest this for people having problems with lifting corners.

Good luck.

 

[Incognito]

I hate self-adhesive products. They are more apt to have problems than conventional products. Now that I have that off my chest . . .

Now that a conventional VCT adhesive has been used, it may be difficult to remove these without damaging them. So we are probably beyond the point where we can "fix" the original installation errors without removing and rebuying the entire floor.

Given that, here's an unofficial fix. Try super-glue on the corners and then weight them down for a while. (You might need to borrow a shelf full of books from the library.) If the superglue is not adhering, then epoxy. When it comes time to remove the floor, lot's of work.

You won't find this in any installation instructions. But some manufacturers will "unofficially" suggest this for people having problems with lifting corners.

Good luck.

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I was with you right til you started with your fix.

I say there's no fix here. The flooring is toast. Probable causes are moisture left in the PATCH------possibly not allowed to fully set. HARD is not the same as DRY when it comes to SLC/SLU. Now it's sealed over with thin spread it's not going to breath at all or allow a permanent bond. Oozing anything in the seam under these assumptions makes matters worse. Could also be the glue not set adequately because of the notches now it's wanting to push it's way though at the corners/seams

Sometimes............TIME could be your best friend. With the gaps I see you MIGHT eventually dry out the glue enough to tack up and pull the corners down.

An alternative cause explanation is the peel an stick glue is incompatible with the Henry's thin spread. We ALWAYS used thin spread NO NOTCHES under peel and stick and never had an issue. But things change and who knows what new chemicals the lab coats have thrown in the mix that's now on the back of those tiles.

Tearing up and spilling and smearing any kind of solvent and using ANOTHER adhesive is the last thing I would advise. To recommend a pressure sensitive I'd want ALL the existing adhesive removed from the backing of the tiles and of course the floor. You could only do that with solvents. To me there's just no telling what you're creating mixing all those factors.

To summarize my opinion and advice either demo and start from scratch or WAIT, WATCH and HOPE the problem was just more time needed to dry out. I've seen resilient tiles curl and relax many times with changing moisture conditions. Heat would help------gentle, slow heat on a few test spots out of the way. Then check back in a few days to see if the corners want to lay back down.

It could happen.

 

[Incognito]

I'm willing to bet there is a moisture problem. The vapor wants out and the seams and corners are the easiest route. Was there moisture tests taken before the install?
I have the same problem only with commercial vct. I knew better than not to take tests and didn't. Shame on me for that one.
Usually using vct adhesive is a back up to the peel n stick.
Daris

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The VCT glue is not really so much back-up as in EXTRA glue but more as a primer to overwhelm dust, because the peel and stick adhesive we dealt with were ridiculously sticky but applied very, very thin so the slightest bit of dust from your hands, or residual left on the floor after sweeping killed out that glue. Probably could have just vacuumed and mopped and got a superior bond but on construction sites it's about ten thousand times easier to smear out a primer than to negotiate the extension cords for the vac and then access to clean running water to rinse the mop bucket. Same deal on plywood with the sawdust film over everything from cutting.

I think every variety of peel and stick just wants you to use THEIR primer.

Of course that's the best idea------especially in a home where you can actually control the dust for a minute or two. In construction the dust is never ending. They can make it a lot faster than you can vacuum and mop.

BTW the same principle applies to double faced tape. It's sticker than hell to a PERFECTLY clean surface. But we apply contact cement anyways, basically to mop up the dust.

 

[Incognito]

Gump: ........"which had Henry 565 self leveling underlayment poored with Henry 564 floor pro primer."
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You mean poured OVER the FULLY DRY primer or did you mix the SLU with the "milk"?

Pretty sure any SLU is highly dependent on an accurate mix. Throwing additives is something we do all the time with the trowel applied patch but I'd never do it to SLU unless specifically mentioned and directed in the instructions.

 

[Gump]

Gump: ........"which had Henry 565 self leveling underlayment poored with Henry 564 floor pro primer."
**********************
You mean poured OVER the FULLY DRY primer or did you mix the SLU with the "milk"?

Pretty sure any SLU is highly dependent on an accurate mix. Throwing additives is something we do all the time with the trowel applied patch but I'd never do it to SLU unless specifically mentioned and directed in the instructions.

The primer was applied before and seperate.

 

[Gump]

Your brother probably tried to save you some money, and that's a cool thing. But whenever you get flooring from lowes or me nard or home depot they never really tell the consumer all the aspects needed to get it done right. Always check manufacturers website or call the. FYI! Dont let this be a anger match between ya, it's a learning lesson to remember like a lot of installers have learned. So be forgiving. Lol

I'm forgiving but it's very frustrating as I explained I don't want corners cut before he started and asked him specifically if the adhesive he was using was correct and told him that it didn't look like the correct adhesive.

 

[Gump]

Thanks for all the information. I'm not sure where we are at with this. He's coming out late this week. It seemed as if pulling up the tile that's curling and replacing it worked for one tile. The adhesive was not dry under the tile. If he wasn't my brother he'd be tearing it all up on his dime and doing it correctly.

 

[QCI777]

I'm forgiving but it's very frustrating as I explained I don't want corners cut before he started and asked him specifically if the adhesive he was using was correct and told him that it didn't look like the correct adhesive.

Yep I know! It's a bummer but what can you do. Hate your brother over a floor? Or love em anyways, and make him go through the struggles with you. If you get angry at him he will just stay away and you will be left to do everything all by yourself. And then you will be even more angry! Just let him help you do what is needed and he will learn something new! Like don't ever do that again! Lol and he will respect you for being so forgiving, You may want to take your brother with you to a flooring store and you tell them what all happened make him feel the pain of this, and they may have compassion on you both and really try help you with out with out such a huge ex spence. no matter what it's going to be a painful experience. But memories are great for future laughs that keep your relationship strong. I know it's not funny right now! But when things like this happen it's better to have hummer in the heart than anger. Thats how we installer have to do at times! He tried and you tried! Thats a good thing! It's not the end of the world and nothing should ever get between family. No matter what, But you should make him feel the pain with you! And he will one day make it up to you! You may want to try a floating floor I don't know all the details as far as seeing your home, but a cheaper way may be to just go over that floor with a floating system. Again I strongly advice you to have a flooring professional to come to your house have your brother their! to tell you what is best and a more inexpensive way to reconcile this problem. That way they can see all what needs to be done and they may take a moisture test of your floor. And they can give you better advice just by seeing what you need done! Ok
Good luck bud hope you will get through this soon. Have a great day

 

[Incognito]

Thanks for all the information. I'm not sure where we are at with this. He's coming out late this week. It seemed as if pulling up the tile that's curling and replacing it worked for one tile. The adhesive was not dry under the tile. If he wasn't my brother he'd be tearing it all up on his dime and doing it correctly.

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here's some GOOD NEWS Gump

if the glue ISN'T dry then there's still HOPE

HOPE that all you now need it patience

don't F with a torch or heat gun

just GO AWAY and FORGET ABOUT IT for a few weeks/months if that's remotely feasible. This mess ain't going to fix itself overnight. As I said.......TIME is your friend.

Sorry, no other option aside from demo and replace makes sense to me.

For Christ's sake keep water/soap away from the seams------ANY liquid for that matter. You have a SLIM chance to dry this mess out and it COULD just lay flat.

I love to go to the racetrack and bet the ponies. I'd lay your odds here at 5-2 against.

 

[youngun]

Heat gun/hair dryer, don't hold right next to material or against. You need to heat the tile up to reactivate the glue. Henry's is great for high moisture content. The trick is to get a weighted roller (hand roller), reactivate glue with heat and immediately hand roll the crap out of the corners and edges THEN find something flat to put over material and wight it down, leave for a 24 hour period. If this doesn't work, your brother saved you enough money I'm sure, go get a "floating floor" install over the mess.

 

[Ernesto]

Personally I think it could be a moisture issue if the glue is right. Or set to wet. Not enough flash off time. Those are the main reasons for corners curling.

 

[Gump]

Thanks again. We're going to pull up the curled tiles with or without heat depending, inspect glue situation, replace tile and stack something on top of them and see what happens. I'll post up pics of the success or failure.

 

[Gump]

Grout was done. A few tiles not sticking in the corners but no curling. Besides the moisture and not letting the incorrect glue flash, he must of got them dirty. Replacing the tiles seems to work.