Which wood floor bonding adhesive?

[jps10]

Left my edges 2" short to join to tile without threshold. Want to do a flush join of 9/16" wood flooring to adjoining tile.
Will set 1.5" strip cut from leftovers of same flooring, but will lift 2" floating installed wood floor to bond edge down, then in-fill void w/ the 1.5" strip.
I copied this over from Tools & Supplies since it didn't get much attention; sorry if I broke the rules.

Question is which bonding adhesive to use?

Good reviews on Sika T21, or T55, but don't want to buy 4 gallon tub to just bond 30 feet of 4" width.

What's an equivalent product in caulk gun size catridges?

I'll post pics later when job is complete.

PS: Floor is by company called 'Natures Beauty': 5-1/2" x 1/8" 'Kempas' on 1/2" ply base [actaully 9/16" total thickness], then 1/16" foam moisture barrier underlayment floating on concrete slab on grade floor.

Thanks,
jps

 

[Incognito]

"back in the day" wood floor/parquet adhesive was EXACTLY the same crap as the heavy duty construction adhesive. NONE of this stuff was remotely acrylic/latex/water based or remotely environmentally or otherwise healthy and safe to use but it ALL stuck.....pretty much ANYTHING down to the floor like a MF.

Now they've got wood floor glue AND construction adhesive that looks, smells and works the same to me as rubber cove base glue or ceramic tile mastic. I wouldn't ever use that on wood in my house.

30 feet 4" wide is ten square feet. Why not use an epoxy adhesive and weight it down over night.

I know they still make REAL construction/wood floor adhesive. I just don't find it when I need some. I'll bet the guys who do wood floor as a specialty HAVE to know brands and product #s.

good luck.

 

[jps10]

Could be wrong, but I think the new stuff, like Sika T21, etc, is polyurethane based, which keeps its flexible, but glued down. Also, the EPA, CARB, etc, buckled down on VOC's, so the manufacturers produced these new adhesives.

I've used some Sika caulk on boats, and I know it works, and lots of places claim Sika flooring products [T21, T55] are among the best, but they only make 4 gal tubs.
So, what polyurethane based adhesive bonds wood to concrete, and comes in smaller amounts like the caulk gun cartridges, or maybe a 1 gallon tub?
Sounds like there are a bunch, just figured this being a flooring forum, this would be a 'no-brainer' for some installers.

 

[jps10]

FloorMav-
The floating floor edge is a 45 degree cut across the board lengths, whereas the 'transition strip' is +/- 5' [x1.5"] strips cut lengthwise from leftover boards.

The edge of the floating floor has displaced about 1/8" upward along its' edge where I plan to join it with the bonded 'transition strip' which will join the tile.

I want flush [vertical] joined edges of the floater, the transition and the tile, with maybe a 1/8 to 1/4" [horizontal] gap between each for caulk [to eliminate a dirt collector].

 

[Ernesto]

If you wanted a flush transition you shoulda nailed it or glued it down in the first place. All floater transition strips are overlap for a reason, to allow movement under the transition strip.

Silicone will adhere most anything to anything.

 

[jps10]

Words may not be describing the situation accurately enough.
Maybe I'll post a pic of the situation here.

 

[jps10]

These pics might help explain.

#2550= 4.5' entry hall to family room. Sits flush now, therefore just glue down 'in-fill strip', fill gaps either side to floater and tile w/caulk.

The remaining are the floating edge to tile at rear slider/fireplace. The apex or corner of the floating floor has displaced [warped] up near the depth of the material, ie: 1/2". Not so bad down the length of edges, so before setiing 'in-fill', I plan on 'tape line' cut of both edges to straighten, then the 1st 2" along strip glue down, then glue down 'in-fill' strip, then caulk the 1/8 to1/4 joints between each, up to tile.
Hopefully all to be flush- ie: no transition threshold T moulding. I don't like them.

 

[jps10]

[Edit: Sorry, I should have written like this]

1st pic= 4.5' entry hall to family room.
Sits flush now, therefore just glue down 'in-fill strip',
Caulk 1/8" gaps on each side of 'in-fill' strip [to floating floor edge and tile].

The remaining pics are the gap where the 'in-fill' strip will join floating edge and tile.

3rd & 5th pics show corner of the floating floor has displaced [warped] upward, almost the thickness of the material, ie: 1/2".
Not so bad down the length of edges, so before setting 'in-fill', I plan on cut/trim of floating edges to straighten them out.
Then glue down a 2" wide edge of floating floor,
then glue down 'in-fill' strip,
then caulk the 1/8" joints between tile, 'in-fill' and floating [glued] edge.

Hopefully all will be flush- ie: no transition threshold T moulding. I don't like them.

 

[jps10]

Anyway, back on point: Need to glue the floating floor down at minimum of 2" of edge.
What adhesive is available in 1 gal containers, or caulk cartidges, that is as good as Sika T21 or T55.
T21:
▪ 270% elongation
▪ Extremely easy to trowel
▪ Crack bridging
▪ Low odor
▪ Excellent Green Grab
▪ Suitable for common types of wood flooring
▪ Creates sound reduction layer
▪ Especially good for problematic woods such as beech and bamboo
▪ Contains no water
▪ Bonds solid wood flooring up to ¾” thick and 8“ wide, and engineered planks up to 14“ wide directly to
concrete without length limitations.
▪ Eliminates sleepers and plywood over concrete and gypsum substrates
▪ Permanently elastic – allows planks to expand and contract without damage to the adhesive
▪ Tenacious bond

T55:
400% Elongation
Formulated to be extremely easy to trowel, preventing arm strain
Fast curing - unfinished wood flooring can be sanded after 12 hours of cure time
Suitable for most common types of wood floors
Especially good for problematic woods such as beech and bamboo
Suitable for bonding wood floors directly onto old ceramic tiles
Suitable for in-floor radiant heat installation
Footfall-sound-dampening adhesive
Contains no water
Bonds solid wood flooring up to 8 inches wide and engineered planks up to 14 inches wide directly to concrete with no length limitations
Eliminate sleepers and plywood over concrete and gypsum substrates
Permanently elastic – allows planks to expand and contract without damage to the adhesive or substrate

seems big difference between these is the "Elongation"; is that another way of saying flexibility?

Well, that's what I need, or the equivalent, in 1 gal or caulk cartridges.

 

[jps10]

FloorMaven-
I agree, but I had it cleaned after leveling and grind. I would definitely re-clean surface w/solvent before glue. I can set a couple of 2x4s under and offset about a foot, as spacers to lift the floor, just enough to reach in to make a 2" to 4" wide short stroke w/a trowel or spatula. The two edges are 7-8' long and none of the baseboards are installed.

It's very doable, just want to be sure I'm using the right product so I don't have to re-do, for using wrong bonding product.
Seems like the T21 [270% elongation] would be good enough.

 

[Ernesto]

[Edit: Sorry, I should have written like this]

1st pic= 4.5' entry hall to family room.
Sits flush now, therefore just glue down 'in-fill strip',
Caulk 1/8" gaps on each side of 'in-fill' strip [to floating floor edge and tile].

The remaining pics are the gap where the 'in-fill' strip will join floating edge and tile.

3rd & 5th pics show corner of the floating floor has displaced [warped] upward, almost the thickness of the material, ie: 1/2".
Not so bad down the length of edges, so before setting 'in-fill', I plan on cut/trim of floating edges to straighten them out.
Then glue down a 2" wide edge of floating floor,
then glue down 'in-fill' strip,
then caulk the 1/8" joints between tile, 'in-fill' and floating [glued] edge.

Hopefully all will be flush- ie: no transition threshold T moulding. I don't like them.

Least you have a finger jointed core thats fairly stable. Looks like paint on the slab in that corner, and that was cleaned? Maybe could be white thinset residue. I think you screwed the pooch by not gluing the floor down in the first place if you wanted a flush edge.

By the way that floor is bowing up in the corner I'd say your floor is not sufficiently flat, or the planks are bowing due to a moisture imbalance or to low/high rh.

There aint no way your going to hold that corner down properly unless you use a T-mold, baby threshold or some type of overlapping material.

 

[jps10]

Points taken. Not agreed with, but noted.

Yes, the underlayment is a single 2-3mm layer of hi-density foam sheeting. Further agreed that the underlayment could have been cut on a cleaner line [you're talking to the contractor/homeowner], but that's not the reason the floor has displaced upwards, that is caused by the drying out of the species and the fact that the surrounding edges haven't been constrained.
Before install we randomly taped down clear plastic sheeting for a couple days to get a condensation check- resulted in none. So CA is a dry area.
[yes the white on concrete is the remaining traces of bonding mortar for tile as we didn't want to get too close with the floor grind. That will sand off easily by hand or flex disc on my right angle Makita.]

Doesn't surprise me that these last boards, being un-restrained along these edges, would dry out and warp. Given it's wood, that shouldn't surprise anyone- the species is from a semi-tropical environment and then installed in a desert. Who would have guessed? [tongue in cheek].
And I'm not surprised it lies as flat as it does everywhere else, except for the obvious unconstrained corner, since the floors were leveled and ground, then cleaned since we weren't sure if we wanted to float or bond at that point. There's a huge flooring contractor warehouse nearby which carries quite a few floor bonding products. Never heard of a 'baby threshold'.

Agreed, a threshold would do the trick, but I still hate them, they collect debris and eventually either crack or displace enough to go loose, not to mention being a minor tripping hazard. We'll 'git her done'- down I mean.
Pics to follow.
Thanks for the support.

 

[jps10]

Yes, the side in contact w/concrete is the poly side.

Yes, owner-installer.

Yes, boxes of boards were opened, unbound and left in a south exposure bedroom for at least a week before install.
The corner in question is on the north side of house, and the only room with a non-rectangular floor layout.
House floor plan is predominantly true North-South orientation.

The statement is resolutely clear- southern California, specifically San Diego, over the period 1981-2001, receives about 10" rain a year over a span of about 4 months. We're a desert- but unlike Phoenix, Las Vegas, etc, we're very close to the ocean, which raises our RH to near twice that of those cities -60%. That explains why we experience large brush fires about every other year, and why we rely on the Colorado River water supply, just like Phoenix. We're a desert, with a bit more vegetation, and the cooling effect of being next to the ocean.

The existing gap was to accommodate a T-threshold, but 10 months later, I prefer a flush join to the tile. As explained earlier, the edges will require a straightening cut, then the proper width strip will be cut to allow an 1/8" to 1/4" caulk joint on each side.
It's my first install of wood flooring. I'm making no apologies for my workmanship, since I don't do this for a living and it's turned out better than I anticipated.
This single corner on the north side of the house is unconstrained yet by surrounding baseboards, and being a triangular shaped extension shouldn't be a surprise [10 months later]as to why it's curled up 1/2" at the very corner- it's wood, and thin material at that. I'm surprised it isn't twice that. Its wood!

So original plan was to be "open" to a T threshold, but the more I saw of them, the more I disliked them.
None the less, here I am, probing expert opinion, but it's starting to remind me of the 'quilting-bee' of nay-sayers and doubters at a Tile website I visited 10 years ago when I wanted to surface my kitchen counters w/granite 12x12 tiles with a zero joint. The tiles had about a 1/16" bevel on all sides. The consensus was that I conspired to commit heresy: "No- don't go zero joint, it won't hold; it'll crack and pop-out, the tiles will buckle and pop loose, you're going against professional practice- you'll pay in the end", etc.
10 years later, with a properly installed base, bonding mortar and high quality grout, the surface is completely intact, the grout is solid and bonded to the less than a 1/8" wide V joint, the Kohler tile-in sink receives daily washes and spills, and there's no evidence of tile or grout release-failure, as had been predicted by at least a half dozen alleged licensed professionals.

BTW: Thanks for the pic of the 'baby threshold'.

 

[jps10]

Holy toledo!
Floor-
I keep visiting this page to see if there is a shred of hope that I can save the vast wasteland I apprarently created and am now condemned to burn in for the rest of my life, without tearing down the entire house and starting over.
How will I get through the week with this ill fate dangling over my head [or at least over a small corner of my family room slab floor]?
Strictly for the record:
I was looking for a resourceful perpsective and recommendation of [other than that which I stated I'm not interested in:T threshold], for example, a known bonding product, such as was quoted [Sika T21 or T55] in the original post of this thread.
Floor, you've apparently hinged some of this discussion on my 'mis-phrased' clauses or statements made in one of my previous posts.
Allow me to further articulate my intent in that original writing: "...So CA is a dry area."
I hereby claim a 'mea-culpa' for not being diligent in my keyboarding and composition at once in that short statement. "So" was intended to be an abbreviation for 'southern', not a coordinating conjunction, which I believe is the basis for your comment.
I should have written: 'southern california is known to be a dry region, thus I'm not surprised I have low, to no condensation indicators from my random plastic sheet test.'
I didn't intend to impart to the reader that the entire state is dry, solely due to the results of my slab sheet tests.
End 'mea culpa'.

Now, concerning your perception of my conclusion of the floor warping 'up' at this single corner, being an excuse:
No excuse is required on my behalf; the statement is made becuase it is a well documented attribute of wood- regardless of species, except for maybe petrified, or ironwood, it's all subject to change due to environmental influences. It's no different for a species created in or near rain forest conditions, processed and then installed in an arrid, desert environment; unless the entire surface is glued into place, it's an inevitability [and there will be exceptions there as well].
You would have to be void of any knowledge of the properties of wood, to presume there should be no changes in harvested products from one environment, then installed in a near opposite environment. I understood that at the outset, and so far everything is within reasonable expectations, including this 1/2" upward displacement for about a leass than 3 sq. ft. area that has sat unfinished for 10 months. From guitars to furniture to floors, regardless of methods, treatments, etc., the best that can be hoped for [given a minumum point of return for cost of growth, harvest, processing and marketing] with any wood, is that an acceptable amount change will occur in the chosen application of the selected species; beyond that, we [humans] look for a specialized or alternate way to control a natural process, and this is one of those times.
It's my perception that this circumstance is minor in regard to the entire flooring job, and that regardless of your [FloorMaven] assertions, the contrary can be accomplished.
Regardless of how you manage your own business, I don't remember asking: "if I were your customer, how would you resolve this?" Nope- I just wanted to know about wood flooring bonding products.

That you may perceive this flooring circumstance to be hopeless and destined for the randomness of probability [even if it turns out to be 3 of a kind, I'll take it] is an opinion you can find an entire school of support for, and I encourage you to find comfort there all you want.

If I'm wrong, I'll post pictures [doubt it all you want if it gives you closure] of how wrong things can turn out, or, conversely, how right they can be resolved with the some time, resourcefulness and consideration of all products and tools available. I've 'floated myself into a corner, and now I'll resolve it, but probably not to your liking; somehow, I'll adapt.
Please don't trip on your T thresholds though.
Thank you.

 

[Ernesto]

10 years later, with a properly installed base, bonding mortar and high quality grout, the surface is completely intact, the grout is solid and bonded to the less than a 1/8" wide V joint, the Kohler tile-in sink receives daily washes and spills, and there's no evidence of tile or grout release-failure, as had been predicted by at least a half dozen alleged licensed professionals.

I bet if I went there and pounded on that top the grout would pop.
Sure it can stick to the sides of tile fairly well depending on its finish...rough verses glossy. However thats not the intended installation procedure as designed by the manufacture of any grout system. As a DIY'r you can do as you please. As a licensed bonded insured contractor we mostly stick to manufacturers intended guidelines.

As contractors and NOT handymen we have a reputation and license to protect. Plus we want happy customers. As mentioned before in this scenerio I would have asked the consumer if they wanted the floor to be flush with no transition strip, if they did I would have glued it down. Its all about planning and customers expectations.

Now since you didn't use a professional meter to check the moisture content of the wood prior to installation your floor is drying out and warping. Time does not tell you anything about wether or not the wood is properly acclimated to the interior ambient rh. Thats the ole Lumber Liquidators speel...... give it two weeks and install it. This is even a worse problem for exotic woods that come from an extremely wet environment to a dry climate. Luckily your average rh is higher than a desert due to the ocean. Still many people have had issues with exotics in the San Diego area.

You say your in a dry climate, but that makes zero difference when it comes to slabs MVER's.

 

[Ernesto]

Here's a fun short video about the plastic sheet test. Not sure where you were advised about performing this test, perhaps you read it online from one of those forums you visited. Any manufacturer that suggests this test is either and idiot or just wants to make it easier for DIY'rs to ruin their floors. :

[ame]http://youtu.be/uAIjz9IoP1Q[/ame]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAIjz9IoP1Q&feature=youtu.be

 

[Ernesto]

I believe you asked not only for an adhesive if my recollection is correct, but you also asked for a solution to the problem of not liking the typical profiles of the transition strip available.

Here's another transition strip you could use. Much flatter profile than hardwood T's. ; http://www.schluter.com/1_3_reno_t_function.aspx

Oh wait, no you can't because you didn't plan you flooring job. Dang! Hate it when that happens. LOL

You could cut the back side off a regular T strip like floormaven suggests which makes it into a baby baby threshold. Oh wait, again I think your space it cut to far back in some spots.

Baby thresholds work well in situations like this. The only thing is is that 45 degree angle, not horrible looking but works well against high stone floor installations. Unless you could find some stock of the same species....uh huh sure, then have someone router out a flat L shape you could glue down but then thats going to be an overlap as well and your going to have to match the stain and gloss of the floor with wood floor finish of some sort. Glue it down with anything you want, I prefer PL Premium quick set.

 

[jps10]

It's was 1 pm, PDST at the time of your last post. Shouldn't you be working, as a professional?

"I bet if I went there and pounded on that top the grout would pop."
The converse is true; I could do the same at your house, but that would just prove an illegitamite means of acheiving your goal.
For your edification: The granite is polished on all sides but the mortared side. Frozen turkeys, frozen gatorade bottles, heavy casserole dishes, abalone tenderizing: It's been kitchen duty tested. It's not a machinists work bench. [Sticking to manufacturers intended guidelines.]

"Now since you didn't use a professional meter to check the moisture content of the wood prior to installation your floor is drying out and warping."
What would a 'professional meter' that you haven't named yet, have done for "the wood prior to installation" to prevent "your floor is drying out and warping".

BTW: What is the 'professional meter' you are referring to, the unit being measured or expressed, and to what least count?

What would you have done to the wood flooring bundles if their moisture content was not to the industry specifications you apparently are constraining yourself to?

Can you identify the published document specifying the standards you constrain to?

Can you identify and cite from the published document specifying 'exotic species' wood flooring failure rates in San Diego county?

Do you know which species I am working with?

"As a DIY'r you can do as you please."
You're not imparting any great revelation to me or any other readers here by making that statement; it's already a well known fact.

"As a licensed bonded insured contractor we mostly stick to manufacturers intended guidelines."
Really? Why wouldn't you completely stick to manufacturers intended guidelines?
Wouldn't that be the best practice and self indemnification? The consumer might also want to know why.

"As contractors and NOT handymen we have a reputation and license to protect."
From what I have read of these codes, out of the legal necessity, the UBC and the AZ Contractors Licensing Boards' 1st priority is to protect the public by ensuring contractor compliance of minumum standards; a secondary effect of that is your license retention.
Reputation is a perceived and subjective quality; your past deeds, including "professional posts" at websites like this, should speak for themselves.
Your expressed opinions are taken accordingly.

Ernesto, from your response above, it appears to me that you have an underlying agenda to summarily discredit or dismiss anything I write here, just because I stated that my flooring [and tiling] might and has worked, and that I'm willing to try an alternate way, albeit one that you disagree with.
The fact that you went out of your way to make a provocative statement that if you 'pounded' on my kitchen counters...', appears as a disguised attempt to censor or de-certify someone who doesn't agree with you, instead of just leaving the thread with a comment that you agree to disagree; a much more tactful way of discussing differences.

Just read your latest pearl:
"Oh wait, no you can't because you didn't plan you flooring job. Dang! Hate it when that happens. LOL

You could cut the back side off a regular T strip like floormaven suggests which makes it into a baby baby threshold. Oh wait, again I think your space it cut to far back in some spots."

It's looks like you've reduced your "professionalism" to mocking and laughing at homeowners who attempt to have a legitamite discussion about your trade.
The rest speaks for itself.

 

[Ernesto]

It's was 1 pm, PDST at the time of your last post. Shouldn't you be working, as a professional?

Funny coincidence, I happened to be writing a report on a wood flooring failure for a manufacturer. I do that now and then at home because it's just not convenient to do it on my smart phone at a jobsite.

"I bet if I went there and pounded on that top the grout would pop."
The converse is true; I could do the same at your house, but that would just prove an illegitamite means of acheiving your goal.
For your edification: The granite is polished on all sides but the mortared side. Frozen turkeys, frozen gatorade bottles, heavy casserole dishes, abalone tenderizing: It's been kitchen duty tested. It's not a machinists work bench. [Sticking to manufacturers intended guidelines.]

My granite dont have grout.

"Now since you didn't use a professional meter to check the moisture content of the wood prior to installation your floor is drying out and warping."
What would a 'professional meter' that you haven't named yet, have done for "the wood prior to installation" to prevent "your floor is drying out and warping".

BTW: What is the 'professional meter' you are referring to, the unit being measured or expressed, and to what least count?

Theres a slew of professional wood metering devices out there from pin meters to non-invasive meters. I happen to have two pin meters and one non-invasive. Thats what real professionals use on wood jobs to check the "percentage" of moisture content in the wood to insure it is at the correct MC for the zone the flooring project is being installed at.

What would you have done to the wood flooring bundles if their moisture content was not to the industry specifications you apparently are constraining yourself to?

The industry MC for wood at manufacturing is easily found. That can vary enourmously depending where it was manufacturerd. The manufacturer will spec the ambient interior rh and temp the wood shall be exposed/installed to. You would also need a thermohygrometer, and a zone chart

Can you identify the published document specifying the standards you constrain to?

Yes, but not for you.I am presently wasting my time with a DIY'er who does not listen to professional advice anyway, so why bother.

Can you identify and cite from the published document specifying 'exotic species' wood flooring failure rates in San Diego county?

No one tracks that but you could find them easily on a search engine with the proper use of key words.

Do you know which species I am working with?

What does that matter at this point in the discussion?

"As a DIY'r you can do as you please."
You're not imparting any great revelation to me or any other readers here by making that statement; it's already a well known fact.

No comment

"As a licensed bonded insured contractor we mostly stick to manufacturers intended guidelines."
Really? Why wouldn't you completely stick to manufacturers intended guidelines?
Wouldn't that be the best practice and self indemnification? The consumer might also want to know why.

Guidleines dont always address every known issue that can present itself. I'm sure if you bothered to read yours you might find them very vague

"As contractors and NOT handymen we have a reputation and license to protect."
From what I have read of these codes, out of the legal necessity, the UBC and the AZ Contractors Licensing Boards' 1st priority is to protect the public by ensuring contractor compliance of minumum standards; a secondary effect of that is your license retention.
Reputation is a perceived and subjective quality; your past deeds, including "professional posts" at websites like this, should speak for themselves.
Your expressed opinions are taken accordingly.

We try and help, some people listen, some do the opposite like you said your going to do. Actually going beyound the minimum is what most of us do here.

Ernesto, from your response above, it appears to me that you have an underlying agenda to summarily discredit or dismiss anything I write here, just because I stated that my flooring [and tiling] might and has worked, and that I'm willing to try an alternate way, albeit one that you disagree with.
The fact that you went out of your way to make a provocative statement that if you 'pounded' on my kitchen counters...', appears as a disguised attempt to censor or de-certify someone who doesn't agree with you, instead of just leaving the thread with a comment that you agree to disagree; a much more tactful way of discussing differences.

You've been given a hoard of information and advice yet you told floormaven your going to do it your way, most likely the wrong way so whats your beef?

Just read your latest pearl:
"Oh wait, no you can't because you didn't plan you flooring job. Dang! Hate it when that happens. LOL

You could cut the back side off a regular T strip like floormaven suggests which makes it into a baby baby threshold. Oh wait, again I think your space it cut to far back in some spots."

It's looks like you've reduced your "professionalism" to mocking and laughing at homeowners who attempt to have a legitamite discussion about your trade.
The rest speaks for itself.

I'm not going to bother going back and quoting all your mockery and ridicule of persons spending time giving you professional advice for free mind you. I've spent enough of my time with you already. Mocking the mocker? Maybe. Good luck