Luxury Vinyl Ends Lifting, Bending on install

[kkeppler]

Hey Everyone, we just had some vinyl floors installed in our basement after flooding. Luxury Vinyl waterproof (click lock) - they look amazing, but on many of the planks, where they meet to click are lifted a bit. Is this something that is salvageable? I'm trying to understand what the installer did to cause it - is it a manufacturing defect, they didn't clean out the groove properly and debris, maybe slid in at an angle and didn't tap down, maybe tapped with their block too hard? I've attached some pictures to the thread. It's probably this way across 5% of the floor - everything else looks good. Thanks for your help!

 

[C.J.]

Broken butt joints for sure. Could be from a couple different reasons. Definitely need replaced.

 

[kkeppler]

If the floor is already down, would you make them replace it? I doubt the flooring will go back in place super clean.

 

[C.J.]

That is a good question. If the installer(s) damaged planks on the first go around then I would think you’ll see more of the same on the second time at it.

You’ll definitely need replacement material. You’ll need enough to fix what is currently damaged as well as anything else that gets damaged during the un-installation and re-installation of your floor. It’s gonna happen so just plan for it no matter what someone, who has to pay for the new material, says.

 

[kkeppler]

Agreed - I'd assume the installer would have to cover the re-installation. The vinyl (LVP) seems finicky, but I did have them skim the floor before install, so I'm pretty sure they won't be able to blame the consistency of it for lack of re-installation. We picked waterproof vinyl planks for a basement, however, it looks like we may have been better off with engineered or something else next time. aaarrrgggg

 

[C.J.]

The damage is definitely installation caused. Had you gotten a better installer and this problem never happened, you would probably love this floor just as much as if you had picked out a different product.

Assuming your floor is flat!!! That damage looks like the plank was not in its proper position while being lowered into place. Some drop n lock products will slide a hair closer to the butt joint, while angled up, than they’re designed to be while laying flat and connected to the previous plank. Now when the plank is lowered into place the top side of the new plank butt joint hits the top side of the previous plank, instead of landing perfectly with the butt joint groove of the previous plank, because the new plank is slid too far over, and so it cracks when it’s tapped with a mallet while trying to seat the joint.

I would say the solution is to take the floor apart and replace planks as needed since the alternative is to have someone attempt individual plank replacements. That’s just gonna end you up with a patchwork quilt of a floor that’s likely gonna give you problems until your 1 year warranty is up and they quit returning your phone calls.

 

[Incognito]

Agree with C.J.

The liquor store down the road where I buy my beer had the whole store LVTed just a few months back and I got to see the process. First off they laid over existing vinyl asbestos------might have even been asphalt asbestos. Now I forget but a lot of them were loose, cracking and/or missing. Finished product has nearly the exact flaws you've illustrated above. ONLY ITS MUCH WORSE.

That line and crease at the butt joint is happening particularly at the store entrance/exit and of course this is where you can see the low angle lighting. It's hardly visible elsewhere but I suspect that's lighting/visibility/traffic

Worse aspect for their instance is that damaged joint in a high traffic area is now accelerating the failure, breaking off, buckling and ITS A TRIP HAZARD. So they're using a walk-off mat over top.

Can't be 100% certain that it's installer error. I was actually there for a few minutes to see them install. They were bumping with a rubber mallet the way most guys do and a tapping block. I suspect it's a poorly designed product--------maybe OK for residential if PERFECTLY installed. Not at all suitable for the entry of a market/liquor store.

90%+ for sure it's installer failure-------I designate some degree of fault for choosing/selling an inappropriate material. As a commercial installer I have not see any click-assembly system I could recommend for COMMERCIAL traffic.

 

[kkeppler]

Agree, seems if it's not completely clean, or set in the groove when they are installing, if they tap with the mallot, or are using too much force, this would happen. Bad product design (though aren't most vinyl products doing this now-a-days) and a bad installer.

The painter's tape are spots with divots and joint issues as above. Again, they skimmed the floor so I paid extra to make sure it was level per the install instructions.

 

[C.J.]

Skimming and leveling are two different things. Could be a little substrate flatness issue thrown into the mix.

 

[Incognito]

Yeah. of course ANOTHER issue with the suitability of these products is they need very flat and smooth substrates. Laying over rolls (unflat) or lumps (more abrupt) creates uneven stress on those joints and eventual failure. This is fairly easy to ascertain even after the install with a 10 foot straight edge. You're allowed 3/16" to a 1/4" max. That's actually a very difficult (expensive) standard to meet. What we call a skimcoat is a smoothing layer-------NOT intended to flatten. Flatting out a substrate involves MEASURING, then either grinding down high spots, filling in low spots or a combination of both.

Your problem is almost certainly related to how they assembled the floor. Good luck trying to convince/prove that. What they lack in professional skill they make up for in being professional weasels. OK, that's over the top. Let us know what your installer/vendor has to say. We like these kinds of stories. We see plenty.

 

[C.J.]

What they lack in professional skill they make up for in being professional weasels.

I compare it to dealing with the government. Obviously they’re not the same but the frustration level one can get while navigating the process is the same.

 

[kkeppler]

I compare it to dealing with the government. Obviously they’re not the same but the frustration level one can get while navigating the process is the same.

Oh yeah, dealing with the government, the installer, my other half for wanting it done and willing to concede. I just want it finished correctly!

 

[kkeppler]

Update: As you all suggested, they tried to suggest manufacturing defects. I held my ground by having the gentleman demonstrate how they tap the ends in place. Could hear them talking in Spanish about how difficult this type of flooring is to install (care). Anyhow, they'll have to replace most of it as 25%+ is damaged. Their manager will be coming over to do another inspection, and we're going from here.

 

[highup]

Update: As you all suggested, they tried to suggest manufacturing defects. I held my ground by having the gentleman demonstrate how they tap the ends in place. Could hear them talking in Spanish about how difficult this type of flooring is to install (care). Anyhow, they'll have to replace most of it as 25%+ is damaged. Their manager will be coming over to do another inspection, and we're going from here.

As CJ mentioned the floor needs to be absolutely flat.
If you step on the floor does it flex even slightly?
Without being insulting, have your wife step on the floor as you are down close to the floor to see if it moves.
She's really, really, really not going like when you ask her to do this.
I've seen these issues with the thinner, less expensive grades of click lvp flooring. Tho the product can be durable, and less expensive, it requires much, much, more for prep. The click-lock mechanism on the thinner, less expensive flooring products is so tiny that any flexing of the floor can cause the joint to break.
If it's installed correctly, you won't save any money by going to this thinner, lighter weight product because it requires more floor prep.
Can you give us the name of the actual product?

 

[kkeppler]

As CJ mentioned the floor needs to be absolutely flat.
If you step on the floor does it flex even slightly?
Without being insulting, have your wife step on the floor as you are down close to the floor to see if it moves.
She's really, really, really not going like when you ask her to do this.
I've seen these issues with the thinner, less expensive grades of click lvp flooring. Tho the product can be durable, and less expensive, it requires much, much, more for prep. The click-lock mechanism on the thinner, less expensive flooring products is so tiny that any flexing of the floor can cause the joint to break.
If it's installed correctly, you won't save any money by going to this thinner, lighter weight product because it requires more floor prep.
Can you give us the name of the actual product?

Forgot to respond - happy to give the name of the actual product.

It's LifeProof Waterproof High Traffic Luxury Vinyl Plank Flooring - 22MIL wear layer - not bottom of the line, not top of the line.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lifepro...ooring-19-05-sq-ft-case-HLVSPC030-C/316580534

 

[C.J.]

I’ve installed plenty of Lifeproof. It’s a decent product. That specific product is a SPC/ rigid core product. You gotta be careful with that stuff.

 

[kkeppler]

I did some investigating, and found that if you lay it down initially, it's fine and level. It's if they try to lift and replace the board in the same spot, then it creases like this. Wondering if they did that many times over and that's why it's lifting.

Update: The installer is trying to contact them to see if it's a manufacturing issue, or an installer problem. They'll be sending an inspector over after the holidays. Since it's 25%+ of the floor after my inspections, I'd bet money that it was an installer issue!

 

[C.J.]

I did some investigating, and found that if you lay it down initially, it's fine and level. It's if they try to lift and replace the board in the same spot, then it creases like this. Wondering if they did that many times over and that's why it's lifting.

Update: The installer is trying to contact them to see if it's a manufacturing issue, or an installer problem. They'll be sending an inspector over after the holidays. Since it's 25%+ of the floor after my inspections, I'd bet money that it was an installer issue!

There’s many layers to this onion and from a business perspective this is the process to sort things out. What’s that you say, somebody has to pay for this and this is what that process looks like.

From HD’s point of view, that’s who you signed the contract with, it’s either a manufacturing problem or an installation problem, because all they do is sell the job and sub the work out. This is where the independent inspection comes into play. An independent inspector will come out and assess your installation and determine whether it’s a manufacturing defect or an installation related issue. They’ll write up a report based on their findings. Manufacturing defects do happen but they are few and far in between. So this report will likely fault the installation for any number of reasons, any of which on their own will void the manufacturers warranty which then makes anything and everything an installation related problem. Almost a waste of time but a necessary step in the process of elimination so it stays in the mix.

So now we know it’s an installation issue. What’s gonna happen. New material will be ordered and a repair date will be set, usually with the same installers. There’s a whole thing out there about an installer having the right to repair their own work, it’s an actual thing but the sidestep to that **** show, for you as the customer, is the fact that you signed a contract with HD. Not the authorized service provider nor the independent installer that did your installation, but with HD. That’s who you have to allow the opportunity to take care of you. I say this because I wouldn’t want the same installers that blew the job in the first place to be the ones to save the day the second time around. You may get some resistance to this request but stand your ground, you’re the customer and ultimately HD will take care of you.

Anyway, it’s later and you got some more material sitting in your living room. Best to have plenty of material on hand so you can deal with any potential breakage during the uninstalling of the floor. I’m having flashbacks to fixing other peoples botched jobs and damn if they weren’t better off to just reorder the entire job because, we’ll just because.

Alright, so now you let the new crew redo your floor. It’ll be hard but don’t ride them, they’re not the ones who blew it in the first place as well as HD does have some decent installers. Besides, who knows what they will find underneath the floor during the process. If the second installation turns out for the better then problem solved. If not then you advance to the next round.

Feel like dealing with the government yet?

 

[kkeppler]

Updates, updates, updates.

The flooring report from the independent inspector has been received by HD and the manufacturer, and the re-install has been APPROVED! Now comes the question - our initial purchase of the LVP I'm definitely not going to re-install. Based on the manuf or installer defects, what would the group suggest installing in a basement (purchased from HD)? I'm good with spending more than the initial choice if it makes sense? Engineered hardwood?

 

[Incognito]

Updates, updates, updates.

The flooring report from the independent inspector has been received by HD and the manufacturer, and the re-install has been APPROVED! Now comes the question - our initial purchase of the LVP I'm definitely not going to re-install. Based on the manuf or installer defects, what would the group suggest installing in a basement (purchased from HD)? I'm good with spending more than the initial choice if it makes sense? Engineered hardwood?

There are some very nice engineered hardwoods. I personally like the feel of the REAL wood. I had an engineered merbao (with an 1/8 surface layer that lasted me well over 20 years and still looked good when I sold the house. It was only installed in the corridor that opened to the living room, three bedrooms and a 1/2 bath. Originally, besides that corridor I had it picture framing (1' border) the living room carpet. Eventually I deleted carpet from our living areas (two boys + dog) and went to porcelain tile.

Porcelain tile served us very well in the kitchen, dining and living rooms and looked 100% when we ultimately sold the property. So that's worth considering, especially in a basement where plastic and wood have concerns with moisture and humidity.