Photography 2

I thought this might be useful for those of you who do inspections for claims and what not...with LVT's being all the rage we often get calls for ledging. I've learned that one way to really get this issue to show up in an inspection photo is to shoot it in monochrome. This will emphasize the shadowing in the photo. Using a low source of light to cascade it across the floor will also enhance any issues and help them show better in photos.

CFR who ever that floor belongs to I'd say they have a moisture problem, am I right?

DarisMulkin said:

CFR who ever that floor belongs to I'd say they have a moisture problem, am I right?

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Well...yes and no! So, we're vetting a new vendor partner in a totally different kind of flooring material - magnetic LVT. We are literally their first distributor partner here in the U.S. (they are European based manufacturer).

If you're familiar with the Metroflor version of magnetic LVT, this one is the exact opposite. With ours, the magnet is on the back of the LVT, and you use a rollable coating on the floor that has a magnetically attractive material (Ferrous Silicate FeSi) mixed into it. Once the coating is dry, you just snap a line and lay the floor.

There are different options for the coating, an acrylic base (which is what we used), a polyaspartic base, and a "temporary" coating which can be used on walls as well as floors.

First some background...
Our building was built in the 1940's. The slab is on grade with absolutely no vapor retarder. I argued that we should use the polyaspartic since it offers vapor reduction that the acrylic does not. Unfortunately, I was poo-pooed by our ownership for multiple reasons. The floor also has some rolls in it and really should have been dealt with prior to installation. Again, no-go. I was told that "this would provide "REAL WORLD CONDITIONS" compared to what our customers would encounter in the field...".

As part of the process, we did a test install in our breakroom. Everything went fine until we started laying the floor.

• First, I noticed we were seeing some shading variations at the edges of the tile. I've seen a similar pattern before and I knew what that problem was from that previous experience. (It's a decor film issue)
• Second, we started to notice some slight ledging and gapping. That was attributed to the slight rolls in the slab. I think they were being a bit ticky-tacky on that one, but we'll see...
• Third, I noticed that the product has a pretty significant "back-bevel" cut to the edge. Meaning if we look at the floor from the side, the top edge of the floor is touching and there is a gap at the bottom. Not sure that is a good thing at all...

We proceeded with the remainder of the install and have just been watching it for the past couple of months to see if it improved. After working through a couple of things with their manufacturing we figured out the product had an issue. (I think we saw that already but thanks for confirming it, right?)

Anyway, we made the decision to switch the floor out as a result.

Our sundries rep and I decided to document everything as we were removing the floor to try and provide further detail and feedback both for ourselves as well as our vendor. When we lifted the floor this morning, we saw immediately that there was most likely moisture coming through the acrylic coating we used. However, we had lifted part of this floor over the past two months and there hadn't been any signs of moisture even several weeks after install. That may have been because we're in a pretty significant drought here and we only have had rain in the past two weeks for the first time in quite a while.



At this point, we're lifting up the rest of the floor, and then we'll apply a prep product that the manufacturer offers over the existing acrylic coating, and then apply the polyaspartic coating over the top and lay a new floor.

The nice part is this stuff is super easy to remove. You literally just lift it up and it will release from the subfloor. No sticky mess.

Commercial Floor Rep said:

The nice part is this stuff is super easy to remove. You literally just lift it up and it will release from the subfloor. No sticky mess.

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So cool thanks for bringing us into this new and exciting time of flooring.

Commercial Floor Rep said:

View attachment 20147View attachment 20148

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Have you tried blocking out colors.... R G B instead of b/w or inverting to a negative?

highup said:

Have you tried blocking out colors.... R G B instead of b/w or inverting to a negative?

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Yeah, and that can work better in some situations, but I found this the easiest and most consistent way for my eye. Everyone sees color differently, but black and white tends to be more consistent in how people see it. If you look in these images, it not only shows the ledging problem, but you can actually see the light and dark shading issues along the long edges of the tiles. This is an inherent issue with this particular decor film. I've run into it before with other manufacturers. It has to do with the darker "chip" element and how frequently it appears along the edge in some tiles vs. others. The manufacturer stated that they couldn't see it, until I showed them in black and white as an example.

I remember some years ago when everyone was saying there’s an installer shortage. Everybody was talking about it like it was a going to break the industry because there would be no skilled installers left to install flooring. One such person was Robert Varden. I’d listen to him talk about all kinds of **** and never saw one tangible thing that made a lick of difference to me, an installer, yet that MFR came out with a magnetic floor in the same time period. That was when I realized the industry was effed from the top down and it was time for me to mosey on down the road to greener pastures. Not much different than the homeless problem if you ask me. You can only talk about a problem for so long, without actually doing anything about it, until people just decide to quit listening to you and leave.

This has nothing to do with photography but that magnetic floor brought back memories of why I said F this and left the industry.

C.J. said:

This has nothing to do with photography but that magnetic floor brought back memories of why I said F this and left the industry.

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The desire to improve sometimes exceeds
the technology and the concepts can fail.
However they or someone else usually dust themselves off and jump into Magnetic Flooring take 2 …..Remember The Thomas Edison quote …… As for Marketing people like RV, overselling something is what they do, it’s not a character flaw, just a desire to improve a situation that they believe exists from the evidence at hand.
Ironically I bet this technology is coming to counter tops too some day, if not already we can run, but we probably can’t hide

Commercial Floor Rep said:

Yeah, and that can work better in some situations, but I found this the easiest and most consistent way for my eye. Everyone sees color differently, but black and white tends to be more consistent in how people see it. If you look in these images, it not only shows the ledging problem, but you can actually see the light and dark shading issues along the long edges of the tiles. This is an inherent issue with this particular decor film. I've run into it before with other manufacturers. It has to do with the darker "chip" element and how frequently it appears along the edge in some tiles vs. others. The manufacturer stated that they couldn't see it, until I showed them in black and white as an example.

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I mentioned that because to view some barely discernable letters and numbers on a metal part, I think I used photoshops histogram sliders to remove colors to monochrome, then slid the RGB sliders one at a time and things showed up better with one color at a time.
....I thunk that's what I did.

Wow..... Like always, you are dead on with every word.
....maybe I'm wrong and unions are good. I'd assume, and I could be wrong, but I'd expect unions to insist on trainings and especially updated trainings, for new products.

highup said:

Wow..... Like always, you are dead on with every word.
....maybe I'm wrong and unions are good. I'd assume, and I could be wrong, but I'd expect unions to insist on trainings and especially updated trainings, for new products.

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CFI was originally intended to be a union. You paid $50, watched a 30 minute video and were certified. I was at the creation meeting. Walker thought he could get rich on it.

Floorist said:

CFI was originally intended to be a union. You paid $50, watched a 30 minute video and were certified. I was at the creation meeting. Walker thought he could get rich on it.

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I went to a Bruce class 120 miles out of town. In one hour I was a professional wood flooring installer. Same with waterproof Coretec. I never received the video they promised, not my certification......
...because the product was immediately discontinued.

The very first thing you need, if you're going to teach someone something, is that they are willing to learn. If they are willing to learn, then things get better. If they are not willing to learn, then it's just a waste of time and resources.

The second thing you need is an understanding of how installers make money - speed. So, if they are not hourly, then most likely anything you tell them that's going to add time, additional steps, or cost to them is 99.9% unlikely to be done in the field. We have to find a way to make it "cost neutral" for them at minimum or it simply won't get done.

I've spent hours and days of my life explaining why using a pressure sensitive to install vinyl tile is an absolute disaster waiting to happen. LVP / LVT needs to be wet set or semi wet set, with a standard pressure sensitive glue and if you want the best bond possible short of an epoxy or urethane adhesive, a firm-set transitional pressure sensitive is best (again, semi-wet or wet). That one simple thing would solve about half of the installation failures in glue down plank that I see day in and day out. But they simply won't do it, because it adds time because you can't easily work on top of the tile while laying it and you can't spread up 8000 square feet (totally can't anyway, but that's what I see over and over again).

Third, you CANNOT believe that telling the retail sales staff about an installation change to a product will be relayed to the field. That's like explaining an algebra problem to a two year old and expecting it to get properly relayed to a college student who needs the information to take their final exam. Duh! Most retail sales people do not have the experience or understanding to know what they don't know regarding installation and are almost guaranteed to miss something. And, many are so intimidated by the fact that they lack the knowledge they simply avoid the issue altogether and won't say a word. You have to get the information to the guy putting the floor in.

I know this all seems straightforward and simple, but it really is the biggest cause of failure out there. I realize mechanics cannot spend all their time learning every product on the market, but know what your shop sells and stay in tune with what you work with. When something new comes up, take 10 minutes and read the directions!

Commercial Floor Rep said:

The very first thing you need, if you're going to teach someone something, is that they are willing to learn. If they are willing to learn, then things get better. If they are not willing to learn, then it's just a waste of time and resources.

The second thing you need is an understanding of how installers make money - speed. So, if they are not hourly, then most likely anything you tell them that's going to add time, additional steps, or cost to them is 99.9% unlikely to be done in the field. We have to find a way to make it "cost neutral" for them at minimum or it simply won't get done.

I've spent hours and days of my life explaining why using a pressure sensitive to install vinyl tile is an absolute disaster waiting to happen. LVP / LVT needs to be wet set or semi wet set, with a standard pressure sensitive glue and if you want the best bond possible short of an epoxy or urethane adhesive, a firm-set transitional pressure sensitive is best (again, semi-wet or wet). That one simple thing would solve about half of the installation failures in glue down plank that I see day in and day out. But they simply won't do it, because it adds time because you can't easily work on top of the tile while laying it and you can't spread up 8000 square feet (totally can't anyway, but that's what I see over and over again).

Third, you CANNOT believe that telling the retail sales staff about an installation change to a product will be relayed to the field. That's like explaining an algebra problem to a two year old and expecting it to get properly relayed to a college student who needs the information to take their final exam. Duh! Most retail sales people do not have the experience or understanding to know what they don't know regarding installation and are almost guaranteed to miss something. And, many are so intimidated by the fact that they lack the knowledge they simply avoid the issue altogether and won't say a word. You have to get the information to the guy putting the floor in.

I know this all seems straightforward and simple, but it really is the biggest cause of failure out there. I realize mechanics cannot spend all their time learning every product on the market, but know what your shop sells and stay in tune with what you work with. When something new comes up, take 10 minutes and read the directions

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Many, most all installers here work with one shop most of the time. They know what you're working on, about when you'll be finished, and with that relationship, the shop can set up the right installer for each job, know their progress and set up schedules for other jobs.
Installers just show up, get marching orders and are on their merry way.

When you show up, and they have a new product that looks like it may need a special sealer and a special adhesive.
......this is NOT the time to send the installer out to the job, after saying:
"Just take the regular adhesive we normally use.......I think it will work"

Shops need to know and have on hand the correct adhesives and tools or trowels, plus tell the installers how it's to be installed. The shop needs to know this stuff so they can send the installer out to a job totally prepared.
....at least prepare me on a Friday so I can do research over the weekend.
I always hated going on cold.

highup said:

Shops need to know and have on hand the correct adhesives and tools or trowels, plus tell the installers how it's to be installed. The shop needs to know this stuff so they can send the installer out to a job totally prepared.
....at least prepare me on a Friday so I can do research over the weekend.
I always hated going on cold

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Me and the brothers/ Pop were not on the same page with this issue. On one hand, you don’t want to micro-manage too much, and on the other you need to make sure the job is completed properly

I wanted to be the middleman ( IPM) installation preparation manager, but that never happened

Commercial Floor Rep said:

. We have to find a way to make it "cost neutral" for them at minimum or it simply won't get done.

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Fantastic terminology, defining the issue at hand CFR ! …. Reminds me of the
movie ‘ Vengeance ‘ when the New York reporter/ boyfriend, sitting at the breakfast table, tells the family that his skill set of investigating and interviewing can find the person or reason for Abilene’s death. He said, if I don’t find the person responsible, I will at least define the issue.

Ok ! Now I have an outside the box possible solution / cost neutral idea.
Everyone pays liability insurance for disasters. How about a reverse insurance for Success ! …. Instead of sending out the inspectors to figure out the failure, have them analyze the results of success.
Then ! just like salary personnel get bonus money or profit sharing at the end of the year, so do the installers who demonstrate
Integrity of service…… CFR, you may need to tweak that a little and then run with it.

I wish my hair looked this nice!

How did you get her to pose in the studio