If there is a problem with moisture, how soon will problems appear....

[curious1234]

If there is a problem with moisture, how soon will problems appear in the engineered wood floor installation?
In other words, how soon would the floor start to buckle, etc?
Is this a common problem where the wood is laid using glue that has a moisture barrier incorporated, over concrete slab?
Also, what if the glue does not cover the floor all the way to the edges? Is that a huge problem?
Thank you in advance.

 

[Ernesto]

Wood takes on moisture faster than it releases it. The answer to your question depends on the amount of moisture.
Also, going all the way to the edges is not that important IMO. I think as long as the coverage goes under all the wood it should be fine.

 

[Incognito]

If there is a problem with moisture, how soon will problems appear in the engineered wood floor installation?
In other words, how soon would the floor start to buckle, etc?
Is this a common problem where the wood is laid using glue that has a moisture barrier incorporated, over concrete slab?
Also, what if the glue does not cover the floor all the way to the edges? Is that a huge problem?
Thank you in advance.

******************************
My shop only does a handful of glue down wood jobs each year. We're using Bostic's Best Adhesive with their MPV4 moisture barrier and have never seen any moisture related problems. It's hard for me to even imagine ANY moisture penetrating through both layers. I'd pass on the one part systems. But I'm sure they have a relatively high success rate. I want a 100% success rate in this area of the trade. We're not cheap on glue, underlayment and moisture remediation where it counts. Wood flooring and some other types of fairly expensive INSTALLED pricing is where it counts. There's no room for error. It's serious business. It's my life------------well, the tough part of my life------not the better part of my life. (G)

On a new slab we will insist the concrete be bead blasted to remove any sealers that might prevent penetration of the moisture membrane into the pores.

As Ernesto implies a small amount of moisture may never show up as an issue. More severe conditions could wreak havok well before your warranty is up. Without satisfying and documenting all the the testing and conditions at the time of install any warranty is useless.

 

[BudCline]

Incognito: "I want a 100% success rate"

But, do you ever get it the way you operate? Just askin'!













I can answer that question. The question was meant to be rhetorical anyway.

 

[Incognito]

But, do you ever get it the way you operate? Just askin'!













I can answer that question. The question was meant to be rhetorical anyway.

Never even had a complaint on my wood jobs that I know of.

I'm not an independent contractor Bud for about 95% of my career. So I "operate" under the constraint that many other folks are involved in my operation-----sometimes to the extent that I can't be held responsible.

it's a living.

 

[BudCline]

I guess I'm taking "100% success" to mean 100% perfection. Perfection can be illusive at times.

I've been in this business over thirty years and I often mention I have never had a failure or a failed job, NEVER. However I have been called-out for making that statement but dammit, it's true. People don't believe me!

This isn't to say I haven't had my share of problems. I like to think that being a perfectionist has saved my ass time after time but I suppose being a perfectionist is also being anal. I hate problems and I don't take those problems that do arise lightly but by being careful I just don't make that many mistakes.

With all the competition over the years it has become harder and harder to make the "good-money" that once existed in this business and these days I want to do a job only once. There is no profit in doing them twice.

I also do inspections and I find myself shaking my head frequently at what I see being done by others. It's disgraceful. The thing is they did their thing, screwed it up, grabbed the money and ran. I'm slower and more careful and as a result usually make less money than the damned hacks.

 

[Nick]

Same here Bud . But i get repeat business from my customers. I bet the hacks don't.

 

[LeePelletier]

Hi, Curious. Not the answer you want to hear, but "it depends". We install wood flooring in the North East. We have tremendous problems with climate here. Humid summers, cold dry winters.

And that doesn't even get into ground conditions, which are the biggest headache. We have an entire area of town that is all slab construction, no vapor retarders, and so much moisture coming through the concrete that attempting a glued down wood floor is not something we'll do. Had one client tell me with glee that "so and so" put down a wood floor and there were "no problems". That was for the first few months. Then spring came and . . .

Now he wants help suing the people who put the floor in. How about suing yourself? You were told we couldn't put wood on that slab and you did it anyway. That sure sounds like negligence.

The issue is not just one of ground-water levels. In fact, it is rarely ground-water that causes the problems. It is vapor. (Humidity in the ground, if you will). New England is fun.

There are numerous vapor retarders that can be used, and each of them will work up to a point. Read and understand what the limits are. I prefer avoiding extreme moisture situations. For clients that really want it and know the risks, floating is our next preferred method. We'll use a vapor barrier that creates a "bowl" under the wood, pushing excess vapor to the edges.

Common question we are asked: Can't you just glue that vapor barrier down and then glue the wood to that? No. If moisture is an issue, then vapor pressure will pop the glue (if it's strong enough) and you have a floating floor anyway. But a floating floor with problems now.

But aren't there glues that will withstand higher vapor pressures? Yes. But once you cover it with a barrier, that vapor pressure will just build up and build up. You can have pockets of moisture. When it builds enough pressure, it will burst through the vapor retarder. Or pop the glue. And that bubble of "water" under the retarder? It's also quite caustic. Very alkaline. Pop it, and you may find a high pressure stream of alkaline material can take out an eye.

Had a town with a gym floor that was blown. They want help. Moisture is the problem, and the original contractor is gone, gone, gone. You tell them what can and can not be done. They think that replacing the wood floor with a rubber floor is the solution. Wrong. But they don't want to hear it. More money wasted. (We were too expensive, you see). Ahhhh. So frustrating.

 

[Incognito]

I guess I'm taking "100% success" to mean 100% perfection. Perfection can be illusive at times.

I've been in this business over thirty years and I often mention I have never had a failure or a failed job, NEVER. However I have been called-out for making that statement but dammit, it's true. People don't believe me!

This isn't to say I haven't had my share of problems. I like to think that being a perfectionist has saved my ass time after time but I suppose being a perfectionist is also being anal. I hate problems and I don't take those problems that do arise lightly but by being careful I just don't make that many mistakes.

With all the competition over the years it has become harder and harder to make the "good-money" that once existed in this business and these days I want to do a job only once. There is no profit in doing them twice.

I also do inspections and I find myself shaking my head frequently at what I see being done by others. It's disgraceful. The thing is they did their thing, screwed it up, grabbed the money and ran. I'm slower and more careful and as a result usually make less money than the damned hacks.

**************************************
In the context of moisture problems my shop operates to generate income and satisfy customers. When we work for general contractors they're not as obsessed with the quality of the floor as we are. If the general contractor has a deadline and a budget he's often willing to risk laying a floor that he KNOWS will fail sooner than it should. Sometimes I can tell them it probably won't even outlast the one year labor guarantee. I did a wood floor for a barber shop in Long Beach, CA about 8 inches above sea level and just across the street from the ocean. We used the MVP4 and Bostic's best but the old slab had both glue and paint from previous tenants. It seemed crazy to me that my boss will insist on bead blasting new concrete but this he wants to just scrape-away, sand and cover. But that's something he and the customer negotiated based on price and RISK. There's a good chance they never have any problems. Obviously that's not 100% perfection. I did that job at least 5-6 years ago. We're still doing work here and there for that customer. He was a project manager for a general contractor and the barber shop was his brother's business. I also floated an engineered wood in the project managers house. There were some issues with flatness and exterior thresholds I wasn't happy with but he and my boss had agreed to how the install would be done. It always looks nice when we leave. I like to think an engineered wood floor should last a good 20-30 years. But people don't think in those terms when they don't plan on living in a home more than a few years. They certainly won't pay MANY thousands extra for PERFECTION when their goal is to fix up a property, live in it very briefly and flip it for profit.

All this is even more true in my world of resilient commercial flooring than for residential glue down wood. The principles of perfection, risk and success are however somewhat similar. Success for me is happy customers and repeat business.

If they want perfection I'm happy to work with that goal........til the check bounces!

 

[Ernesto]

There's not many jobs I won't take on if the end user has ther money to pay for prep, moisture testing and the like.

Was reading the Bostik Vapor-Lock pdf.

http://www.bostik-us.com/files/tdsfiles/Vapor-Lock.pdf


Quote:Quote Bostik "For substrates that have an MVER of greater than 15 lbs or an RH greater than 85% or for substrates where a vapor retarder is not
used or is not functioning below slab, use Bostik Ultra-Set® Single-
Step™or Bostik MVP4/Bostik Adhesive System."

Hmmm, what-a-yas-think?

 

[Incognito]

There's not many jobs I won't take on if the end user has ther money to pay for prep, moisture testing and the like.

Was reading the Bostik Vapor-Lock pdf.

http://www.bostik-us.com/files/tdsfiles/Vapor-Lock.pdf


Quote:Quote Bostik "For substrates that have an MVER of greater than 15 lbs or an RH greater than 85% or for substrates where a vapor retarder is not
used or is not functioning below slab, use Bostik Ultra-Set® Single-
Step™or Bostik MVP4/Bostik Adhesive System."

Hmmm, what-a-yas-think?

*************************************
I think if you choose either of those, take reasonable steps to clean and prepare the slab, follow all directions your wood floor is going to be fine in the vast majority of cases.

You really can't give any more specific advice without measurements of the conditions, as as Lee points out weather and soil conditions under the slab are not a constant factor making those measures only helpful for determining the present conditions. There's no protection for future messes.

As this is not a new slab one of the things a professional can look (and SMELL) at is how previous floors handled the long term conditions. Especially if there was a resilient floor down there I can usually get a very good idea from a visual inspection of the backing, adhesive, patch and slab how much moisture TENDS to be attacking the slab. I'm not sure to what degree an amateur could use the visual evidence. Sometimes it's not hard to see/smell.

 

[Ernesto]

Incognito, I have used all those Bostik systems. One should always check the pdf files occasionally for changes. I found the reference to use Bostik Ultra-Set® Single-Step™or Bostik MVP4/Bostik Adhesive System in high mver situations kind of startling.

The first two mentioned I used on one large stranded bamboo job, glad I did. Of course the whole slab was prepped with a grinder and the Wagner Rh tests came in 75 -80ish. Will be interesting to see if anything happens.