Just purchased some Mannington Adura Flex for a bathroom on a concrete slab (60 sq. feet). Concrete is about two years old. Do I need to go with the Mannington pressure sensitive adhesive or can I use something like Mapei 373? Are there other PSAs out there that are good to use in your experience with Mannington or other LVP? First time installing this type of product and don't want to mess up. Thanks for your advice in advance!
Mannington Adura Flex adhesive advise
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You can use a 3rd party adhesive to install the product. However, even with a 3rd party adhesive, you must comply with the manufacturer's trowel recommendations and their installation instructions. The manufacturer of the flooring has the ultimate say, not the adhesive manufacturer for warranty after the fact.
With 373 this means you'll need a 1/16"x1/16"x1/16" square notch trowel and you need to install the flooring into the adhesive in a semi-wet state. The adhesive is in a semi-wet state when the peaks of the trowel ridges are cloudy and the troughs of the ridges are clear. You should get good wet transfer in this state. I know people will say "that's too much adhesive" trust me it's not. The product has a texture to the back of it. Make sure to roll it right away and then about an hour after install with a minimum 75 lb. roller.
I know the adhesive will say that you can allow the adhesive to skin over, but that's not allowed under Mannington's guidelines. My own testing shows that you will get little to no tensile strength in the install if you allow the glue to go pressure sensitive. Semi-wet, you'll literally break the product trying to get it off the floor after it's fully cured.
If it were me, I would use either Mannington TPS (V-88) or Roberts 7399 for an install such as this. Same guidelines apply but these two adhesives are transitional and will cure to a firm set and will also provide topical moisture protection which is important in a bathroom. Both of these adhesives also provide higher MVER, RH, and pH tolerances than MT-711.
Another little thing to be aware of, is that Adura Flex REQUIRES that the substrate be porous. In other words, there is no alternate trowel notching for a non-porous substrate. Not all concrete is porous. To test for porosity, simply put about a 1" diameter bead of water on the surface of the concrete, if it absorbs in within a minute then the concrete is considered porous, if it doesn't, then it's non-porous. This is kind of a big problem with newer homes because the residential guys are starting to power trowel instead of float their slabs. Power troweling can close the pores in the concrete and render it non-porous. If the slab is non-porous then you'll have to float the floor with a minimum of an 1/8" of cementitious patch to render it porous. That's NOT a skim coat, that's a full 1/8". Anything less than that is not considered porous by the patch manufacturer (Ardex, Mapei, etc.).
Hope that helps and wish you the best with your project.
With 373 this means you'll need a 1/16"x1/16"x1/16" square notch trowel and you need to install the flooring into the adhesive in a semi-wet state. The adhesive is in a semi-wet state when the peaks of the trowel ridges are cloudy and the troughs of the ridges are clear. You should get good wet transfer in this state. I know people will say "that's too much adhesive" trust me it's not. The product has a texture to the back of it. Make sure to roll it right away and then about an hour after install with a minimum 75 lb. roller.
I know the adhesive will say that you can allow the adhesive to skin over, but that's not allowed under Mannington's guidelines. My own testing shows that you will get little to no tensile strength in the install if you allow the glue to go pressure sensitive. Semi-wet, you'll literally break the product trying to get it off the floor after it's fully cured.
If it were me, I would use either Mannington TPS (V-88) or Roberts 7399 for an install such as this. Same guidelines apply but these two adhesives are transitional and will cure to a firm set and will also provide topical moisture protection which is important in a bathroom. Both of these adhesives also provide higher MVER, RH, and pH tolerances than MT-711.
Another little thing to be aware of, is that Adura Flex REQUIRES that the substrate be porous. In other words, there is no alternate trowel notching for a non-porous substrate. Not all concrete is porous. To test for porosity, simply put about a 1" diameter bead of water on the surface of the concrete, if it absorbs in within a minute then the concrete is considered porous, if it doesn't, then it's non-porous. This is kind of a big problem with newer homes because the residential guys are starting to power trowel instead of float their slabs. Power troweling can close the pores in the concrete and render it non-porous. If the slab is non-porous then you'll have to float the floor with a minimum of an 1/8" of cementitious patch to render it porous. That's NOT a skim coat, that's a full 1/8". Anything less than that is not considered porous by the patch manufacturer (Ardex, Mapei, etc.).
Hope that helps and wish you the best with your project.
Oh Crap! Hopefully it's porous. The whole reason for glue down LVP was the ease of insulation. I will do the water test tonight when I get home. Thanks
You're welcome!
The other option you would have would be to grind it and open the pores. However, that's a mess and you need to make sure you're using a HEPA vac and the proper masks so you're not breathing silica dust. That stuff is no bueno! It's also not too easy to do in such a small area. It's way easier and cleaner to add the patch if needed.
The other option you would have would be to grind it and open the pores. However, that's a mess and you need to make sure you're using a HEPA vac and the proper masks so you're not breathing silica dust. That stuff is no bueno! It's also not too easy to do in such a small area. It's way easier and cleaner to add the patch if needed.
Looks like I am NOT porous. A couple more questions. Is this an issue with only Mannington or all glue down LVT? Also are there any videos showing how to lay down the 1/8 cementitious patch. Thanks
Mannington added this to their Adura Flex installation instructions about a year ago, maybe a little more. To my knowledge, most manufacturers have two different trowel recommendations. One for porous and one for non-porous. I understand their (Mannington's) thinking - erring towards the side of caution to encourage installers to check the substrate and also to push them towards using more adhesive - although I think it's a bit heavy handed and most people have no idea it's been added to their installation instructions. It really comes down to them not really wanting to recommend anything other than MT-711 in their installation instructions, even though Mannington TPS (V-88) can be installed over porous or non-porous substrates utilizing a different notch for each when installing Mannington Commercial LVT (which is literally made on the exact same equipment as Adura Flex). It's a lot to go into to explain the underlying reasons, suffice it to say that it really boils down to an internal conflict between the residential and commercial sides of Mannington's business.
Here's the problem...
When they (Mannington) made this addition to their instructions, they did so without talking to the patch manufacturers. I think (erroneously) there was an assumption that a skimcoat (typically less than 1/16") of patch was enough to render the concrete porous. However, when I found out that they (Mannington) made this a requirement, I spoke with technical services at Mannington and asked if they realized that Ardex, as an example, had made the statement for several years that a minimum of an 1/8" of skimcoat was needed to consider a substrate porous. They did not know this. My company has been a master distributor for Ardex / Henry's for many years and I've been through their training programs many times over the years, so I double checked with Ardex tech services and confirmed I wasn't imagining this. They confirmed that this is their position.
To make sure that I wasn't losing my marbles, I also called several other patch manufacturers tech departments. The response was interesting to say the least. Most of them would either waiver over what thickness they would consider a patch to be porous and several of them had to go to their department heads and call me back. It was as if they had never considered the idea before which surprised me a lot. However, after playing phone tag with a few of them, they finally committed to say that an 1/8" was probably "about what they would consider a minimum". That's what I mean when I say non-committal (welcome to my world
) In every case though, NONE of them would put it in writing that they thought less than an 1/8" would be porous enough. That pretty much means that the minimum "common denominator" is an 1/8".
However, nobody, as a professional installer is going to do that. They just aren't. They are going to go in and do a normal skimcoat, call it good, and install the floor, and honestly sleep well at night. It's nearly impossible for a pro to gauge an 1/8" consistently without using some type of elaborate gauge or screed system, (please don't take offense) let alone someone who's never ran a trowel before. There isn't any video that will teach you in one go. It's experience, practice, and hand skills learned over years.
I have literally sold millions of feet of Mannington LVT over the past 20 years. It's a really, really good product. It's made here in the U.S. and we just don't have many problems with it. Unfortunately, sometimes Mannington shoots themselves in the foot now and then. I honestly look for this requirement to be amended sometime in the near future, but for now, that's where it stands. I can tell you that it is absolutely the exact same construction as Mannington's 20 mil commercial product with the exception of the embossing on the surface. The embossing on Adura Flex is slightly deeper and is embossed in register to give the product more realism in the visual. The commercial product is a shallower embossing and uses a repetitive mechanical embossing to make it easier to clean in heavy commercial environments such as hospitals. In fact, Adura Flex actually has an extra benefit in that it has Microban (antimicrobial) built into the wear layer where the commercial products do not. (Another long story there that's not relevant).
Here's what I'm doing if it's my floor. We're only talking about 60 sq. feet.
Here's the problem...
When they (Mannington) made this addition to their instructions, they did so without talking to the patch manufacturers. I think (erroneously) there was an assumption that a skimcoat (typically less than 1/16") of patch was enough to render the concrete porous. However, when I found out that they (Mannington) made this a requirement, I spoke with technical services at Mannington and asked if they realized that Ardex, as an example, had made the statement for several years that a minimum of an 1/8" of skimcoat was needed to consider a substrate porous. They did not know this. My company has been a master distributor for Ardex / Henry's for many years and I've been through their training programs many times over the years, so I double checked with Ardex tech services and confirmed I wasn't imagining this. They confirmed that this is their position.
To make sure that I wasn't losing my marbles, I also called several other patch manufacturers tech departments. The response was interesting to say the least. Most of them would either waiver over what thickness they would consider a patch to be porous and several of them had to go to their department heads and call me back. It was as if they had never considered the idea before which surprised me a lot. However, after playing phone tag with a few of them, they finally committed to say that an 1/8" was probably "about what they would consider a minimum". That's what I mean when I say non-committal (welcome to my world
) In every case though, NONE of them would put it in writing that they thought less than an 1/8" would be porous enough. That pretty much means that the minimum "common denominator" is an 1/8". However, nobody, as a professional installer is going to do that. They just aren't. They are going to go in and do a normal skimcoat, call it good, and install the floor, and honestly sleep well at night. It's nearly impossible for a pro to gauge an 1/8" consistently without using some type of elaborate gauge or screed system, (please don't take offense) let alone someone who's never ran a trowel before. There isn't any video that will teach you in one go. It's experience, practice, and hand skills learned over years.
I have literally sold millions of feet of Mannington LVT over the past 20 years. It's a really, really good product. It's made here in the U.S. and we just don't have many problems with it. Unfortunately, sometimes Mannington shoots themselves in the foot now and then. I honestly look for this requirement to be amended sometime in the near future, but for now, that's where it stands. I can tell you that it is absolutely the exact same construction as Mannington's 20 mil commercial product with the exception of the embossing on the surface. The embossing on Adura Flex is slightly deeper and is embossed in register to give the product more realism in the visual. The commercial product is a shallower embossing and uses a repetitive mechanical embossing to make it easier to clean in heavy commercial environments such as hospitals. In fact, Adura Flex actually has an extra benefit in that it has Microban (antimicrobial) built into the wear layer where the commercial products do not. (Another long story there that's not relevant).
Here's what I'm doing if it's my floor. We're only talking about 60 sq. feet.
- Make sure the concrete is free of any bond breakers (i.e. old adhesives, pieces of backing from whatever was down before, etc.)
- Skimcoat the floor with a good cementitious patch (Ardex Feather Finish preferably).
- Install with either Mannington TPS (V-88) or Roberts 7399 (sorry I'm not a huge fan of Mapei). You can also use XL 2400 - following the same guidelines regarding trowel notch size and going into it semi-wet. It's a pretty good glue if you do the opposite of what the bucket tells you and get into it semi-wet.
- Make sure to roll the floor after install and then again about an hour later with a minimum 75lb. roller (100lb. is better).
- Enjoy your floor!
Wouldn’t a skim coat make it uneven? Been watching some videos and they don’t really smooth it out completely. They were leaving some lines from the trowel. Maybe because it was not needed?Mannington added this to their Adura Flex installation instructions about a year ago, maybe a little more. To my knowledge, most manufacturers have two different trowel recommendations. One for porous and one for non-porous. I understand their (Mannington's) thinking - erring towards the side of caution to encourage installers to check the substrate and also to push them towards using more adhesive - although I think it's a bit heavy handed and most people have no idea it's been added to their installation instructions. It really comes down to them not really wanting to recommend anything other than MT-711 in their installation instructions, even though Mannington TPS (V-88) can be installed over porous or non-porous substrates utilizing a different notch for each when installing Mannington Commercial LVT (which is literally made on the exact same equipment as Adura Flex). It's a lot to go into to explain the underlying reasons, suffice it to say that it really boils down to an internal conflict between the residential and commercial sides of Mannington's business.
Here's the problem...
When they (Mannington) made this addition to their instructions, they did so without talking to the patch manufacturers. I think (erroneously) there was an assumption that a skimcoat (typically less than 1/16") of patch was enough to render the concrete porous. However, when I found out that they (Mannington) made this a requirement, I spoke with technical services at Mannington and asked if they realized that Ardex, as an example, had made the statement for several years that a minimum of an 1/8" of skimcoat was needed to consider a substrate porous. They did not know this. My company has been a master distributor for Ardex / Henry's for many years and I've been through their training programs many times over the years, so I double checked with Ardex tech services and confirmed I wasn't imagining this. They confirmed that this is their position.
To make sure that I wasn't losing my marbles, I also called several other patch manufacturers tech departments. The response was interesting to say the least. Most of them would either waiver over what thickness they would consider a patch to be porous and several of them had to go to their department heads and call me back. It was as if they had never considered the idea before which surprised me a lot. However, after playing phone tag with a few of them, they finally committed to say that an 1/8" was probably "about what they would consider a minimum". That's what I mean when I say non-committal (welcome to my world
However, nobody, as a professional installer is going to do that. They just aren't. They are going to go in and do a normal skimcoat, call it good, and install the floor, and honestly sleep well at night. It's nearly impossible for a pro to gauge an 1/8" consistently without using some type of elaborate gauge or screed system, (please don't take offense) let alone someone who's never ran a trowel before. There isn't any video that will teach you in one go. It's experience, practice, and hand skills learned over years.
I have literally sold millions of feet of Mannington LVT over the past 20 years. It's a really, really good product. It's made here in the U.S. and we just don't have many problems with it. Unfortunately, sometimes Mannington shoots themselves in the foot now and then. I honestly look for this requirement to be amended sometime in the near future, but for now, that's where it stands. I can tell you that it is absolutely the exact same construction as Mannington's 20 mil commercial product with the exception of the embossing on the surface. The embossing on Adura Flex is slightly deeper and is embossed in register to give the product more realism in the visual. The commercial product is a shallower embossing and uses a repetitive mechanical embossing to make it easier to clean in heavy commercial environments such as hospitals. In fact, Adura Flex actually has an extra benefit in that it has Microban (antimicrobial) built into the wear layer where the commercial products do not. (Another long story there that's not relevant).
Here's what I'm doing if it's my floor. We're only talking about 60 sq. feet.
I wish you the best. Don't sweat it too much, it's only flooring.
- Make sure the concrete is free of any bond breakers (i.e. old adhesives, pieces of backing from whatever was down before, etc.)
- Skimcoat the floor with a good cementitious patch (Ardex Feather Finish preferably).
- Install with either Mannington TPS (V-88) or Roberts 7399 (sorry I'm not a huge fan of Mapei). You can also use XL 2400 - following the same guidelines regarding trowel notch size and going into it semi-wet. It's a pretty good glue if you do the opposite of what the bucket tells you
- Make sure to roll the floor after install and then again about an hour later with a minimum 75lb. roller (100lb. is better).
- Enjoy your floor!
Also if I went with another brand say Pentz Boulevard Plus (second choice) would I be dealing with the same issue? What's your thoughts on the Taylor Dynamic adhesive? Sorry for all the questions, I know it's only 60sq but I had to buy two boxes since only 47 comes in a box. So I am in for a bit over $400 and don't want to screw it up. Thanks again this has been really helpful!
No. The point of a skimcoat is to remove unevenness. Most installers will just use a normal (rectangular) flat trowel, but one trick for leaving less ridges is to use a pool trowel which has rounded ends, so it doesn't tend to leave ridges behind. However, it is difficult to use a pool trowel and get into corners and tight spaces. If you're watching videos where they are leaving trowel ridges and installing over them, I'd say you're not watching a pro.
I've never even heard of Pentz Boulevard Plus. Sounds like a 3rd tier import. I'd stay with what you got. Everybody and their brother has a "private label" import LVT line right now.
After you skimcoat, you have to remove any ridges that remain. You can typically do this with a 4" hand scraper or with some sanding. A 4" hand scraper works pretty well if you knock them down about 45 minutes to an hour after your patch sets up. It'll still be a little soft and they will scrape right off. A skimcoat is going to range anywhere from about a 1/32" to 1/16" of an inch so you're not talking much to remove.
Now I'll share an industry secret but don't tell anyone ----Mannington's TPS (V-88) is Taylor Dynamic in a Mannington bucket....shhhhh! Don't tell anybody!
I've never even heard of Pentz Boulevard Plus. Sounds like a 3rd tier import. I'd stay with what you got. Everybody and their brother has a "private label" import LVT line right now.
After you skimcoat, you have to remove any ridges that remain. You can typically do this with a 4" hand scraper or with some sanding. A 4" hand scraper works pretty well if you knock them down about 45 minutes to an hour after your patch sets up. It'll still be a little soft and they will scrape right off. A skimcoat is going to range anywhere from about a 1/32" to 1/16" of an inch so you're not talking much to remove.
Now I'll share an industry secret but don't tell anyone ----Mannington's TPS (V-88) is Taylor Dynamic in a Mannington bucket....shhhhh! Don't tell anybody!
Your secret is safe with me.... Okay I will give the skim coat a try. One last question (for now – LOL). To eliminate cutting around a shower pan would you see an issue with me installing the floor first and only putting about 1” of flooring under the edges of the corner shower pan? This will then leave me enough area under the pan to put in the mortar base after the floor is in and eliminate any trim work I would need around that base, essentially making it cleaner look around the pan.No. The point of a skimcoat is to remove unevenness. Most installers will just use a normal (rectangular) flat trowel, but one trick for leaving less ridges is to use a pool trowel which has rounded ends, so it doesn't tend to leave ridges behind. However, it is difficult to use a pool trowel and get into corners and tight spaces. If you're watching videos where they are leaving trowel ridges and installing over them, I'd say you're not watching a pro.
I've never even heard of Pentz Boulevard Plus. Sounds like a 3rd tier import. I'd stay with what you got. Everybody and their brother has a "private label" import LVT line right now.
After you skimcoat, you have to remove any ridges that remain. You can typically do this with a 4" hand scraper or with some sanding. A 4" hand scraper works pretty well if you knock them down about 45 minutes to an hour after your patch sets up. It'll still be a little soft and they will scrape right off. A skimcoat is going to range anywhere from about a 1/32" to 1/16" of an inch so you're not talking much to remove.
Now I'll share an industry secret but don't tell anyone ----Mannington's TPS (V-88) is Taylor Dynamic in a Mannington bucket....shhhhh! Don't tell anybody!
Is this similar to the old "interflex vinyl"?
No, it's a 2.5mm glue-down LVT.
I'm not a fan of installing flooring under stuff, but I don't see that it would hurt anything.
I wouldn't even go so far as to say there's any thicknesss to a real skimcoat because you're actually trying your best to "feather" off the high spots. If you want to know, that's why so many knuckleheads water down the mix so they can bear down hard enough on the trowel to glide off the high spots leaving as little material behind as necessary. Even though the watered down patch theoretically takes longer to dry it doesn't actually because it's been applied thinner than you possibly could were the batch mixed to proper specs. Save time and save bags--------you think?No. The point of a skimcoat is to remove unevenness. Most installers will just use a normal (rectangular) flat trowel, but one trick for leaving less ridges is to use a pool trowel which has rounded ends, so it doesn't tend to leave ridges behind. However, it is difficult to use a pool trowel and get into corners and tight spaces. If you're watching videos where they are leaving trowel ridges and installing over them, I'd say you're not watching a pro.
I've never even heard of Pentz Boulevard Plus. Sounds like a 3rd tier import. I'd stay with what you got. Everybody and their brother has a "private label" import LVT line right now.
After you skimcoat, you have to remove any ridges that remain. You can typically do this with a 4" hand scraper or with some sanding. A 4" hand scraper works pretty well if you knock them down about 45 minutes to an hour after your patch sets up. It'll still be a little soft and they will scrape right off. A skimcoat is going to range anywhere from about a 1/32" to 1/16" of an inch so you're not talking much to remove.
Now I'll share an industry secret but don't tell anyone ----Mannington's TPS (V-88) is Taylor Dynamic in a Mannington bucket....shhhhh! Don't tell anybody!
We would used the term "float over" to be more accurate than skim although if I said skim that over and leave some damn patch on the floor! They would understand. Just like with adhesive gauge methods besides the new trowel notch you measure the square footage per pail/gallon to confirn coverage. Likewise, when we're covering over existing INCOMPATIBLE substrates I'm going to make sure I use X lbs of patch per Y square footage that will confirm the average depth of my fill.
We used to "skim" over tons of cutback for PVC carpet tiles. Few guys were very sophisticated about it so the conventional instructions were to make a pass with a notched trowel, let that dry and then the second padd with your floating trowel. Floating and skimming are used interchangably by most guys but I've always made that distinction where anyone would care to listen. I worked with many, many non-English speakers and quite a few barely literate installers. So you just show them what to do by example, with a lot of pointing and grunting.
...and first place goes to .......
. Excellent 
Makes me want to start installing again.
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