Moisture Issues - Informational.

[LeePelletier]

One area that I find our industry does a poor job addressing is moisture. In particular: flooring failures caused by moisture. This is an area that most consumers do not understand, but I find that many professionals, and even manufacturers inadequately understand moisture.

Our store is in New England, which is likely one of the most extreme areas of the country for both weather and ground conditions. The products that we sell that are most affected by moisture are wood (naturally), but also vinyl and rubber flooring (on concrete).

Typically, manufacturers will have us test the moisture in a subfloor and record that number. Or, they have us do calcium chloride tests on concrete flooring to record how many pounds of vapor we have come through the concrete per 1000 sq. ft. per 24 hour period.

Here's the problem I have with calcium chloride tests. They test the vapor emissions from the concrete at one particular point in time. I've monitored several buildings in our area over a period of time, and I will tell you that this number is NOT CONSTANT. You could measure the vapor emission at one time of year, and get a reading that says laying flooring is fine. But at another time of year (higher water table, warmer ground, who knows why) the vapor emission goes way up.

Now, if we were to follow the manufacturers recommendations, that one calcium chloride test was enough to show that we could lay flooring. But it is a failure waiting to happen. I'm surprised that manufacturers themselves don't do more to understand the issues involved and educate their dealers. It would save them a ton of money.

My goal as a professional is not to just cover my butt and leave the problem with the manufacturer when it fails. After all, I did what they asked me to. No, my goal is to elminate moisture related flooring failures.

I thought this forum would be a good place to start an industry conversation about the issue. Let's face it, just following manufacturer guidelines alone will not address the issue. Surprising, but true.

I have clients here, and have to run. I'll post some more thoughts on this a little later.

Regards,

 

[Ernesto]

Lee, thats why I've started doing F-2170 using Wagner Rapid Rh sensors. Way better than the reuseable probes and they do not have to be recalibrated every month. You use the senors once, the reader can be used hundreds of times without the need for calibration.

If I have a slab thats got issues sometimes i use both CaCl and Rapid Rh and don't forget ph testing, thats just as important. Plus don't forget that if the slab is not protected by a vapor retarder/barrier underneath then it's inevitable the MVER will change.

 

[Nick]

Good topic guys .

 

[Nick]

E, on that Rapid Rh it says to drill a hole to a depth of 40% of the thickness of the concrete . How do you tell when you have reached that depth ?

 

[Ernesto]

Ah Nick, thats the stickler. Glad you asked.

There's a couple of ways to figure that out. One is to simply ask a GC if it's a new site...or maybe the homeowner has some document of construction. Another is to go outside and dig along the outside of the slab. Not always possible. Then you can also drill down to the dirt! Hoping of course you don't hit any pipes,cables or drains.

 

[Nick]

I have a double glue down over cork to do . the wood is lifting off the floor in a lot of different areas .
$50,000 just for the wood . It is a Restaurant.
I was thinking of getting the Rapid RH .
Thanks for the info .

 

[FYIfloors]

I love my Rapid RH, will never go back to the old system I was using. How are you all? Kind of missed you all? Glad to be busy tho and making the most of it

 

[Nick]

trying to figure out the difference between their $35.00 drill bit to the $9.00 carbide one at Sears . same length and size .

 

[DarisMulkin]

Ah Nick, thats the stickler. Glad you asked.

There's a couple of ways to figure that out. One is to simply ask a GC if it's a new site...or maybe the homeowner has some document of construction. Another is to go outside and dig along the outside of the slab. Not always possible. Then you can also drill down to the dirt! Hoping of course you don't hit any pipes,cables or drains.

Drilling to the dirt, doesn't that kind of open up a hole for moisture to get into/under the slab and creat a problem?

Daris

 

[Ernesto]

trying to figure out the difference between their $35.00 drill bit to the $9.00 carbide one at Sears . same length and size .

The 35 dollar one has five cutters on it and is probably tungsten-carbide. Not sure which one your looking at over at sears but I bet you'll be there all day trying to drill a hole if it's not the same as the one at Wagner.

I found a similar one at Lowes

 

[Ernesto]

Drilling to the dirt, doesn't that kind of open up a hole for moisture to get into/under the slab and creat a problem?

Daris

And geysers too!

Yes, but we fill it with patch and seal the top off.

 

[Nick]

The 35 dollar one has five cutters on it and is probably tungsten-carbide. Not sure which one your looking at over at sears but I bet you'll be there all day trying to drill a hole if it's not the same as the one at Wagner.

I found a similar one at Lowes

Similar to the $35.00 one , or the one at Sears ?

 

[Nick]

What do ya think of this one E ?

http://www.toolking.com/bosch-hcbg22-3-4-inch-blue-granite-hammer-drill-bit

 

[Ernesto]

Thats the reason, your not looking at SDS bits.

You need a nice bosch sds hammer drill buddy. You'll never get down there without a hammer drill. And those will start to spin on ya. And see the Bosch drill set below the hammer drill at the amazon link below? Those are only 2 cutter bits. Big difference. you should buy that bent tile chisel while your there too. It's a gonga deal. Just buy the bit at Wagner, save yourself some gas.

See this one:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BB79Q6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[Nick]

Thanks , I have a good hammer drill.

 

[JimSeels]

We should consider this issue in two stage, before and after installation. Here
in New Zealand that is really big problem. Using dehumidifier before installation is a good solution, one need to be sure that the base is totally dry. But we have no control after installation.

 

[Ernesto]

Thanks , I have a good hammer drill.

There's hammer drills and then there's SDS hammer drills.

 

[FYIfloors]

We should consider this issue in two stage, before and after installation. Here
in New Zealand that is really big problem. Using dehumidifier before installation is a good solution, one need to be sure that the base is totally dry. But we have no control after installation.

Unless your've done some extensive testing and have intimate knowledge of the slabs construction from top to bottom, you dont want to be using a dehumidifier to dry out your slab prior to the installation of floor coverngs. Test it, treat it, lay it.

 

[Nick]

There's hammer drills and then there's SDS hammer drills.

Granted E . But rarely do i have to inspect or install over concrete .

 

[Tucks]

Nick, you stole my bike?
You the one?
where you live?