Pro Installer ?

[Mark Brown]

The stinger is about 6" long. You can stretch the carpet 6". You have obviously never used one.

It is irrelevant how long the "stinger" is, what is relevant is the length of area that is able to be stretched while using the pole and head attached to the focal area the stretch is originating from.

Even in a 10' room, assuming again a 3 foot focal length, to get the appropriate stretch on that piece of carpet (1.25") you would need to stretch the focal length by over 3.5" to then have the remaining tension in the floor be "back stretched" for lack of a better term into the remaining 7 feet of carpet.
You can tell yourself whatever you want about how it works, that is not my issue but the laws of physics state that it does not.
I have in fact used one, have worked with a few guys who swore they were the best thing ever and they would not listen to reason either, same as everyone who ever uses a knee kicker swears its the best way there is. It simply does not do the necessary job. If you want to admit to an inadequate installation procedure in the name of saving time, then sure it has benefits as far as speed but do not claim that it stretches carpet.

 

[Floorist]

You have no clue.

 

[Mark Brown]

You have no clue.

That is a well written and concise argument outlining some very specific benefits of the use of a carpet spike, you know, you just about made it make sense.

I think what you will come to find is that I have a very deep understanding of the equipment you speak of and the inability of it to do what you claim. There is no alternative to stretching carpet that stretches carpet. The same argument has been made thousands of times and every one of those times it is easy to demonstrate that what is claimed is untrue. Find me a video, take some photos, eyewitness testimony of anyone getting even close to the appropriate amount of stretch with a stinger and I will gladly recant what I claim but it does not exist because it is not possible and if it is not possible then at best it is just another two bit way to get something done that is not worth the time to do right.

It is no different than using a dead man for a carpet stretcher and why it is required to stretch both ways off of it, presuming that what you are stretching is truly long enough to require it. The direction of force is relative only to the focal point of where it is being created. Force cannot transfer beyond where it is created.

 

[C.J.]

The stretcher head applies the same force to the carpet regardless of whether is is pushing off of a 20’ pole or a 6” spike. The only difference is that the spike limits how far you can pull the rug. The rug slips over the spike. When you run out of that 6”, more like 3” of actual possible stretch, you have to reposition the spike or you will rip the carpet. I know you’re a smart dude, Mark, but the spike is really a very simple tool. No need for physics or calculations. Simply stick it and go. If it makes you feel better I could add a pole onto my stretcher head and then insert the spike but that defeats the whole purpose of it. I don’t do carpet anymore so I really couldn’t care less but for the 20+ years that I used one, it works.

 

[C.J.]

A deadman is nailed to the floor effectively locking the carpet in place at the deadman. That’s why you have to stretch both ways. A stinger doesn’t lock the carpet in. It simply gives the stretcher head something to push off of without the need for poles. The carpet moves freely over the spike until you run out of spike for the carpet to move over.

 

[highup]

You can get it tighter with a stinger and it is faster than kicking.

Tighter than with a kicker but not remotely tighter than poles. I spent the last 5 years restretching sometimes new installations.
The stinger might work but the only benefit it has is speed. I think I restretched two of my own Carpet Jobs in the last 45 years
Two of those jobs were back in the late 80s when Mohawk was making some weird super stretchy backings. Never in my life have I kicked in a job, not even a 6x8 closet.
Everyone is using stingers 100% unless they're on concrete and are forced to use tubes. I can make as much money in 3 hours restricting a room then the guy did doing the original installation in that room.
That said, if I owned and used a stinger, I might be able to stretch in a carpet tight enough. Nobody teaches people how tight to stretch carpet anymore. remember in the late 70s and 80s for a carpet roll would come with seeming and stretching installations? I recall the stretching instructions using the words drum tight.
nobody sends anything in the carpet roll these days unless it's a woven , a patterned or a special material.

 

[Floorist]

Tighter than with a kicker but not remotely tighter than poles. I spent the last 5 years restretching sometimes new installations.
The stinger might work but the only benefit it has is speed. I think I restretched two of my own Carpet Jobs in the last 45 years
Two of those jobs were back in the late 80s when Mohawk was making some weird super stretchy backings. Never in my life have I kicked in a job, not even a 6x8 closet.
Everyone is using stingers 100% unless they're on concrete and are forced to use tubes. I can make as much money in 3 hours restricting a room then the guy did doing the original installation in that room.
That said, if I owned and used a stinger, I might be able to stretch in a carpet tight enough. Nobody teaches people how tight to stretch carpet anymore. remember in the late 70s and 80s for a carpet roll would come with seeming and stretching installations? I recall the stretching instructions using the words drum tight.
nobody sends anything in the carpet roll these days unless it's a woven , a patterned or a special material.

Many guys stretch it too tight.

 

[highup]

That's why I've never had a restretch. . When the instructions said drum tight, my drum isn't a base.
wasn't a few years ago that the manufacturer said not to stretch so tight because customers didn't like the seams peeking? Karastan now says that 7/16" 8 lb pad is okay to use with their woven products. You know that is totally wrong and that they are caving into the customers requests for a softer feel and not what's correct for the material.
.....they'd rather have you come back and restretch the house in five or six years.

 

[C.J.]

Alright, Mark, I got it for ya on the stinger. The only force that is applied is applied at the stretcher itself by the lever action. The poles simply hold the stretcher head in place so the force is directed forward. The spike does the exact same thing but with a spike instead of poles. No redirection, amplification or whatever of force that you said couldn’t be done because as far as the stretcher head is concerned nothing has changed. The stretcher doesn’t know if there is a pole or a spike behind it. Now that funky 3 way stretcher thing, that’s crap because you are pushing off of the carpet itself where as the spike actually sticks into the subfloor and poles push off against a wall. I may not be as technical as you but it doesn’t matter because I’m right

I do appreciate your enthusiasm on this matter though.

 

[Mark Brown]

I am not sure I have ever seen a stinger work "properly" which is to say most of the operations I have seen done with it do not involve the carpet riding the spike as intended and just gets jammed into the ground and stays in place. Lord knows my interactions with one were not at the height of my career and were probably limited to using it wrong. I suppose I would capitulate that the force, if the carpet actually gets engaged on the run of the stinger, would then be entirely transferred to the carpet so yes, theoretically that tool will work however it has some serious design functionality that limits its success. How often this is accomplished, I do now know.
There is also, always, a possibility that I am wrong

 

[Floorist]

That's why I've never had a restretch. . When the instructions said drum tight, my drum isn't a base.
wasn't a few years ago that the manufacturer said not to stretch so tight because customers didn't like the seams peeking? Karastan now says that 7/16" 8 lb pad is okay to use with their woven products. You know that is totally wrong and that they are caving into the customers requests for a softer feel and not what's correct for the material.
.....they'd rather have you come back and restretch the house in five or six years.

You can stretch it too tight and damage the carpet.

 

[highup]

Alright, Mark, I got it for ya on the stinger. The only force that is applied is applied at the stretcher itself by the lever action. The poles simply hold the stretcher head in place so the force is directed forward. The spike does the exact same thing but with a spike instead of poles. No redirection, amplification or whatever of force that you said couldn’t be done because as far as the stretcher head is concerned nothing has changed. The stretcher doesn’t know if there is a pole or a spike behind it. Now that funky 3 way stretcher thing, that’s crap because you are pushing off of the carpet itself where as the spike actually sticks into the subfloor and poles push off against a wall. I may not be as technical as you but it doesn’t matter because I’m right

I do appreciate your enthusiasm on this matter though.

I guess ever since the spike came out I've been blessed with doing hundreds of resretches. During the restrictions I've often pulled the carpet back and scrape back bump that the customer complain about where it puffed up the particle board.
The damage I've seen to hardwood floors makes you want to cry.
I guess all the experiences I've had on jobs that use a stinger or negative so that's why I have that view of the product. I seen it used on looped carpets and even woven carpets. One repair that I did in a walk-in closet, the lady blamed on her cat. it was a thick nylon level loop material. When I pulled the carpet back to do the repair the area that was snagged, I also saw a hole in the floor and the pad.

 

[highup]

I also did a job in retirement community. Two bedrooms, a living room and dining room with carpeted. When I removed the carpet and pad, every 2 ft around the perimeter of the room were 3 to 4-in cones of powder in the Gypcrete. Kind of makes you wonder how confused these guys get when the can't get the stinger to stick in concrete

 

[Floorist]

I also did a job in retirement community. Two bedrooms, a living room and dining room with carpeted. When I removed the carpet and pad, every 2 ft around the perimeter of the room were 3 to 4-in cones of powder in the Gypcrete. Kind of makes you wonder how confused these guys get when the can't get the stinger to stick in concrete

Ah, gypcrete. or haydite. According to my uncle who was involved in the development of that crap, it was only supposed to last 50 years. Or less than 5 years if in contact with dirt. Also, known as "crumble crete"
We had a factory here making haydite blocks. Despite the warning, builders were using them for foundations. After a few years, they would deteriorate.

 

[C.J.]

The stinger isn’t for every situation and you do have to exercise some caution with it. As far as hardwoods go, I don’t worry about that crap because if you really cared about them I wouldn’t be nailing tack strip and stapling pad into them. Just my thoughts on that. I even had a guy tell me he didn’t want me to scrape the old staples up because he didn’t want his hardwoods scratched. I handed him some pliers and told him I was going to lunch. When I got back he had maybe 20 staples pulled. He let me use my scraper after that.

Best stinger story I got is when I show up to the job the customer tells me that the plumber says whatever you do, don’t let the carpet guys use a stinger. No problem I say, I have poles. This guy just had some fancy assed mortise n tenon baseboards installed. Real nice ones too. We broke out the poles and I told my helper to really lay into the stretcher as hard as he could. You could hear the baseboards popping and cracking and every time they did this guy damn near cried. When we were done I told the guy good thing he’s letting the plumber dictate how I do my job. He said lesson learned. I laughed, he didn’t.

Part B of this story is this is the job I learned what happens when you staple AND tape your pad seams. I ended up having to go back to dudes house and pull back the carpet and fix all the pad seams. I told dude that this time around I was going to use the stinger. He gladly agreed to that.

My stinger has been stuck in my stretcher for years. Not sure it could be beaten out even if you wanted to. I have another stretcher if poles are to be used. As you can see the spike sticks into the subfloor acting as something solid to push against just as the poles do. The carpet slides over the spike as it is stretched. Yes, particle board will punk up. They love particle board in Oregon! You gotta hit it back down with your stair tool. Pad can bunch up from the spike too.

And that concludes this episode of how to be a carpet hack.

 

[Floorist]

Try restretching an old trailer house using poles. Or some of the cheap construction where interior walls are not fastened to the floors. The stinger is a tool that has uses. Just like the Kool Glide, great tool for repairs. Way too slow for big installations. Using a glue gun for upholstered stairs. Too slow in the real world.
The only call back I had in the last 20 years was a seam, that I did not make, coming apart in a used carpet installation. For over 30 years, all my work was from referrals. In a county of 28,000, reputation is essential.

 

[C.J.]

There’s a time and a place for it. Quite honestly with the way labor rates have gone backwards with carpet I’m surprised everyone doesn’t have one on their van for those occasions. Now if you’re one of those guys who is getting premium labor rates and doesn’t believe in stingers, more power to ya.

 

[Mark Brown]

Your stinger story has made me love you more than I ever did before Mr. Chris. Most excellent.

 

[Floorist]

There’s a time and a place for it. Quite honestly with the way labor rates have gone backwards with carpet I’m surprised everyone doesn’t have one on their van for those occasions. Now if you’re one of those guys who is getting premium labor rates and doesn’t believe in stingers, more power to ya.

What are premium labor rates? I am the only certified installer (Armstrong) ever in my area and the only licensed installer ever In my area. Many times, cheap is all that matters. I did work for a couple stores fixing screw-ups by their regular installers.
I mean we have all walked into a place and thought "how the hell did they get by with this?" Only thing right was that it was fuzzy side up. And that might have been an accident.

 

[Floorist]

The stinger isn’t for every situation and you do have to exercise some caution with it. As far as hardwoods go, I don’t worry about that crap because if you really cared about them I wouldn’t be nailing tack strip and stapling pad into them. Just my thoughts on that. I even had a guy tell me he didn’t want me to scrape the old staples up because he didn’t want his hardwoods scratched. I handed him some pliers and told him I was going to lunch. When I got back he had maybe 20 staples pulled. He let me use my scraper after that.

Best stinger story I got is when I show up to the job the customer tells me that the plumber says whatever you do, don’t let the carpet guys use a stinger. No problem I say, I have poles. This guy just had some fancy assed mortise n tenon baseboards installed. Real nice ones too. We broke out the poles and I told my helper to really lay into the stretcher as hard as he could. You could hear the baseboards popping and cracking and every time they did this guy damn near cried. When we were done I told the guy good thing he’s letting the plumber dictate how I do my job. He said lesson learned. I laughed, he didn’t.

Part B of this story is this is the job I learned what happens when you staple AND tape your pad seams. I ended up having to go back to dudes house and pull back the carpet and fix all the pad seams. I told dude that this time around I was going to use the stinger. He gladly agreed to that.

My stinger has been stuck in my stretcher for years. Not sure it could be beaten out even if you wanted to. I have another stretcher if poles are to be used. As you can see the spike sticks into the subfloor acting as something solid to push against just as the poles do. The carpet slides over the spike as it is stretched. Yes, particle board will punk up. They love particle board in Oregon! You gotta hit it back down with your stair tool. Pad can bunch up from the spike too.

And that concludes this episode of how to be a carpet hack.
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Did you ever see a double stinger? I saw a picture of one once.