SPC vs. Laminate, Foam vs. Cork

[dannehboy]

Hi, I've been looking into SPC (vinyl) for a Las Vegas home (low humidity + significant temperature fluctuations). I want something that looks realistic and has great texture (I have a dog and want him to have some grip). Laminate has generally seemed more slippery to me and slightly harder on the feet. In particular I have been leaning towards a specific Coretec SPC model which of course has a cork underlayment. During my search, a few flooring stores have sales people who have tried to push me towards Laminate claiming that some laminate is now waterproof and that vinyl in general can get ruined just from an office chair rolling on it. I assumed they have have self-interested reasons to push laminate, but then I spoke to someone by phone who I had requested a quote from who then realized I was in another state and couldn't even help me, yet she wanted to give me some advice and said to wait on vinyl as all their installers are having trouble with it getting scratched and the pieces popping out, etc., and she also said to stay away from products like Coretec due to the cork underlayment which she says will grow and is a health hazard. The only reason I am considering what she is saying is that she didn't actually have any persona incentive to push me a certain direction as it was already clear she couldn't sell me anything. It does seem unlikely that is LVP was so bad that an entire industry would be producing and selling them like crazy for so long without people coming to the consensus that it isn't a reasonable option for waterproof flooring.

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.

 

[Commercial Floor Rep]

Laminate has a higher scratch resistance and higher impact resistance than SPC. I would not use a product with a porous and dimensionally unstable backing material like cork. Whether laminate or vinyl plank, I would use something with a closed cell urethane foam cushion. It could be attached or separate but that would provide the best performance with the least potential for a problem. Look for the term IXPE regarding the cushion. If it doesn’t say that I would avoid the product.

The two biggest factors in whether an SPC performs well are the locking system and the pad. You want a Valinge 2nd generation or higher locking system and an IXPE cushion and you will have a great chance for success. Avoid “drop lock” locking systems at all costs. You want an “angle angle” or an “angle drop” for best performance.

With your dog, I would recommend a minimum 20 mil modified urethane wear layer. Ceramic bead, aluminum oxide, or diamond modifiers are all good options.

I would stay with a 5mm over all thickness minimum for a vinyl plank and a 9mm to 12mm over all thickness minimum for laminate.

The number one cause of failure for any floating floor is not meeting the specifications for floor flatness. The subfloor has to be within an 1/8” in a 6’ span or 3/16” in a 10’ span. If it is outside of this it will break down the locking mechanism and cause separation or breaking of the lock.

The second most common cause for failure is slab moisture. If a slab doesn’t have a proper vapor retarder, intact, and in contact with the underside of the slab it can emit moisture that will condense back to a liquid underneath the floor. This moisture becomes more and more concentrated in pH resulting in a highly alkaline liquid. This is why you don’t want a porous cushion or underlayment. It will absorb and hold this high alkalinity moisture against the bottom of the floor. Alkalinity can and will affect the dimensional stability of the vinyl. This usually results in cupping and failure of the floor.

Many people assume that all these floors are the same but the reality is that there are significant differences in long term performance based on these criteria I’ve mentioned. Follow what I’ve outlined and you should have a good floor. Skip a step or overlook one of these criteria and you’re basically rolling the dice.

I know that is a lot to absorb, but these floors can perform very well but you have to understand what the differences are and seemingly minor differences can have a major impact on long term performance.

Hope that helps.

All the best with your project!

 

[highup]

Absolutely agree... Don't buy the thinner, cheaper materials and for your own knowledge read up on and understand the manufacturers requirements for substrate flatness. Flatness, or should I say the LACK of flatness, in my book anyway, is the reason these floors fail. Many "professionals" never even check. They just start on a straight wall and start clicking it together. Get the floor as close to the manufacturers specifications as possible especially so on the walk areas. Under the couch or bed, less of an issue, but still...... Do your best to make that floor flat before installing a click together product.

 

[dannehboy]

I know that is a lot to absorb, but these floors can perform very well but you have to understand what the differences are and seemingly minor differences can have a major impact on long term performance.

Sorry, I only saw the notification for this thread just now. Thanks so much for your detailed response, it makes total sense and is consistent with what I have found out in my research into this. The SPC options I have been considering all have Valinge 5G locking system, IXPE closed cell underlayment, a total thickness of at least 6.5mm, 20mil wearlayer with one of the mentioned coatings, etc.

However, since I last wrote here, I have had somewhat of a change of mind. I originally was interested in a water resistant "hardened" engineered hardwood by Valinge (https://www.hardenedwood.valingeflooring.com/) as it is supposed to have really good water resistence and scratch/dent resistance when compared to other engineered wood floors. But it was mentioned to me that any kind of wood is not recommened in Las Vegas due to the low humidity, unless I am willing to operate a humidifier consistently in the home. So I started looking into SPC vinyl thinking that it would handle temperature and low humidity and I could simply install it and not think about it.

Then, I started noticing how all the SPC models I was interested in more or less all call for maintaining the home temperature between 60-80 degree farenheit and a relative humidty of 35% - 55% (give or take a few):

I looked into this more, and it seems that with SPC floors, I can't just install it and "forget about it". For example, I can't just leave the home for extended periods allowing it to go above 100 degrees farenheit, as that apparently starts to cause issues with the plasticizers which can ruin the flooring. It's not clear to me exactly how low humidity may be damaging to SPC flooring (or low temperatures for that matter) but I have seen it suggested that it can create problems, and that in general vinyl does expand and contract plenty, even SPC (I had thought it was primarily WPC that had these issues). It was suggested to me that I should expect to have to keep my thermostat on to keep the temperature from going above 80 degrees when I am traveling and out of town.

I would go with tile throughout the entire house, but my home is 2 stories and it has been strongly recommended to me by the home builder not to put tile upstairs (aside from the upstairs bathrooms) as this home is not designed to take on all the added weight of tile throughout the upstairs and that I am likely to have cracking issues and or something like that (can't remember the exact explanation). A couple others I have spoken to have concurred. I could do tiles downstairs, but I still need to put something upstairs and I think the house would look better with consistent flooring.

So at this point, I feel like I might as well go with the Valinge Hardened Wood Floors that I wanted in the beginning for 2 reasons:
1. The good quality decently thick SPC with good visuals that I am considering is in the $3.69 - $4.29 per/sqft range depending on the model. And the wood flooring I am interested in is about $5.29 per/sqft. That isn't huge savings in my opinion. Maybe if it was half the price.....
2. If SPC is going to be relatively high maintenance in terms of maintaing a temperature (and potentially even humidity as well), and also having limitations like not being able to clean it with bleach like you can with tiles, then I feel I might as well just get the flooring I wanted in the beginning and just commit to taking the necessary measures to keep the temperature and humidity at a reasonable level. I have lived with dogs on hardwood before and never had any real issues with excessive scratching or water damage coming from above the flooring, so I think I will be fine with it in that respect especially as Valinges Hardened Wood is said to be significantly better than traditional solid hardwood and even many enginered hardwood options .

Am I making a huge mistake? Or is it feasible to make the Valinge Hardened Wood flooring work for me taking reasonable measures?

 

[Commercial Floor Rep]

I took a look at the Valinge product and I would have a few questions for there technical people. At first impression, it appears to be a "rehash" of a type of flooring that was around for several years and then fell off the face of Earth, due to many claims and failures. That flooring was called acrlyic impregnated wood. When it was making waves 15 years ago or so, it was billed as a "commercial" engineered hardwood. The problem was, it was incredibly dimensionally unstable. Basically, the one or two manufacturers who were selling the product ended up filing bankruptcy as a result. I saw a couple of years ago that someone had started making it again, and it may have been this product that I saw.

As they say "Everything old is new again..." Amazing what some minor changes and a good marketing team can come up with.

While I don't generally recommend products on here that I directly represent, in this case I think I would be remiss not to. Take a look at Mannington Adura Rigids specifications. While it's a bit thinner than what you're considering, the temperature range would be more appropriate towards answering your question. It can handle -20 to 150 F. They stand behind their products well and this product has a good track record of performance. There are no restrictions with regards to humidity and this product that I'm aware of. We have tons of it installed in our market in seasonal lake homes where they turn off the furnace in the winter so the temperature AND humidity would be extremely low. I don't recall any claims due to either situation since the products been out.

Here's a link to the product website. Scroll down and look at the warranty and installation instructions.

https://www.mannington.com/residential/adura-luxury-vinyl/adurarigid

It also has Microban built into the wear surface of the product and bleach will not hurt the floor, although my own preference is to use ammonia rather than bleach. You can buy ammonia at dollar general for a couple bucks a gallon. It cleans and disinfects well and leaves absolutely no residue on the floor. 1/4 cup to 1 gallon of hot water for daily cleaning, and 1/2 cup to a gallon of hot water for something stubborn or sticky. Use a microfiber mop (Swifter is probably the easiest to get your hands on) with the ammonia and you're all set. I don't like bleach because it can have other additives in it that can affect how it comes off the floor. Ammonia does not have that problem.

The only thing that I could think that would be a potential issue in your situation is areas exposed to direct sunlight. People don't realize how hot sunlight gets. It is possible in extreme situations to exceed the 150F max temp due to concentrated sunlight. The good news is that there is a simple fix, windows shades or treatments that decrease heat transfer. Outside of that I can't see any issues with your project.

All the best!

 

[dannehboy]

As they say "Everything old is new again..." Amazing what some minor changes and a good marketing team can come up with.

Out of curiosity, what makes the Valinge product appear to be a rehash of the "acrlyic impregnated wood". Is it the general concept of a very thin but hard/resiliant wood top layer? Or did you conclude that based on a technical description that you read of it?

Here is a quote from their website:

Woodura starts with Välinge’s unique wood powder technology, the same process used to make durable Nadura solid surfaces.

A carefully measured mixture of wood fibres and binders scattered on a high-density fibreboard (HDF) carrier. With Woodura, the key is the addition of a thin sheet of wood. A combination of heat and pressure fuses this layer with the wood fibre core. The powder mix fills the natural openings of the wood layer, enhancing its appearance and giving the floor a range of properties for improved durability.

This process enables a more sustainable wood flooring product in two ways. First, it creates a valuable way to re-cycle wood powder that would otherwise be wasted, either from existing process steps or from old, used-up flooring cores. Additionally, by using thin sheets instead of solid wood, you can produce 10X more flooring from the same amount of lumber than possible with traditional engineered wood flooring.

To the right of that quote on their webpage is a video that describes the process. No acrylic is mentioned. https://valinge.com/flooring-technologies/surface-technologies/woodura/

I will see if I can contact a Valinge represenative to ask about Woodura which seems to be the branding that they give it.

It has been around for at least several years, and I haven't really come across anyone suggesting it has dimensional stability issues, and it does come from what I understand to be a very reputable and influential company in the flooring industry, so I would think they wouldn't want to tie their name to a risky product. But I will do some searching and see what I can find. I do believe that Flooret has been licensing the technology for the Silvan line.

Here's a link to the product website. Scroll down and look at the warranty and installation instructions.

Thanks, I will check it out.

 

[Commercial Floor Rep]

The Nadura top layer starts by mixing wood fibres with binders as well as compounds for enhancing the design

Guess what the “binders” and “compounds” most likely are…

If this stuff was really all that and a bag of chips everyone and their brother would be selling it. This conversation and me possibly seeing a marketing blurb when it came out are the only two times I’ve even heard of it and I’ve been in the industry for 30 years.

The wood powder that they are referring to is the sawdust scrap from the wood milling process I.e chip board. The reason they have to put a stabilizing layer on the bottom of the product is because the chip board is inherently unstable.

I watched their video and it seems to be a pretty close comparison to the way that the acrylic impregnated products were made.

Always good to speak with them directly. Maybe they have found the secret to make it work.

Best of luck with your project and keep us posted.

 

[highup]

Sorry, I only saw the notification for this thread just now. Thanks so much for your detailed response, it makes total sense and is consistent with what I have found out in my research into this. The SPC options I have been considering all have Valinge 5G locking system, IXPE closed cell underlayment, a total thickness of at least 6.5mm, 20mil wearlayer with one of the mentioned coatings, etc.

However, since I last wrote here, I have had somewhat of a change of mind. I originally was interested in a water resistant "hardened" engineered hardwood by Valinge (https://www.hardenedwood.valingeflooring.com/) as it is supposed to have really good water resistence and scratch/dent resistance when compared to other engineered wood floors. But it was mentioned to me that any kind of wood is not recommened in Las Vegas due to the low humidity, unless I am willing to operate a humidifier consistently in the home. So I started looking into SPC vinyl thinking that it would handle temperature and low humidity and I could simply install it and not think about it.

Then, I started noticing how all the SPC models I was interested in more or less all call for maintaining the home temperature between 60-80 degree farenheit and a relative humidty of 35% - 55% (give or take a few):

View attachment 20178

I looked into this more, and it seems that with SPC floors, I can't just install it and "forget about it". For example, I can't just leave the home for extended periods allowing it to go above 100 degrees farenheit, as that apparently starts to cause issues with the plasticizers which can ruin the flooring. It's not clear to me exactly how low humidity may be damaging to SPC flooring (or low temperatures for that matter) but I have seen it suggested that it can create problems, and that in general vinyl does expand and contract plenty, even SPC (I had thought it was primarily WPC that had these issues). It was suggested to me that I should expect to have to keep my thermostat on to keep the temperature from going above 80 degrees when I am traveling and out of town.

I would go with tile throughout the entire house, but my home is 2 stories and it has been strongly recommended to me by the home builder not to put tile upstairs (aside from the upstairs bathrooms) as this home is not designed to take on all the added weight of tile throughout the upstairs and that I am likely to have cracking issues and or something like that (can't remember the exact explanation). A couple others I have spoken to have concurred. I could do tiles downstairs, but I still need to put something upstairs and I think the house would look better with consistent flooring.

So at this point, I feel like I might as well go with the Valinge Hardened Wood Floors that I wanted in the beginning for 2 reasons:
1. The good quality decently thick SPC with good visuals that I am considering is in the $3.69 - $4.29 per/sqft range depending on the model. And the wood flooring I am interested in is about $5.29 per/sqft. That isn't huge savings in my opinion. Maybe if it was half the price.....
2. If SPC is going to be relatively high maintenance in terms of maintaing a temperature (and potentially even humidity as well), and also having limitations like not being able to clean it with bleach like you can with tiles, then I feel I might as well just get the flooring I wanted in the beginning and just commit to taking the necessary measures to keep the temperature and humidity at a reasonable level. I have lived with dogs on hardwood before and never had any real issues with excessive scratching or water damage coming from above the flooring, so I think I will be fine with it in that respect especially as Valinges Hardened Wood is said to be significantly better than traditional solid hardwood and even many enginered hardwood options .

Am I making a huge mistake? Or is it feasible to make the Valinge Hardened Wood flooring work for me taking reasonable measures?

I'm reading this as a second home? Correct me if wrong.
You mentioned a maintained temp/humidity being an issue.
If one can afford a second home unoccupied for lengths of time........
........then one cannot afford owning that home.

I'm just saying all homes need permanent control over heat and humidity to some realistic data point.

If this is a second home, or a seasonal home, look at heating, cooling and dehumidifying a home as part of doing business..... It's just that simple.
..........unless it's a cabin or a shack.
Maintaining it as heated, cooled and having humidity controls has its price.
Consider this. If a flooring product warps and fails because the heat was shut off all winter....... Then you come back in June to find the entire floor all wonky.
How would you weigh the annual cost of not maintaining the second home.

I'm totally guessing about your situation and if this is actually a second home.

It's still a valuable asset, so there are places to cut costs and places not to.