What do you think of this and can it be fixed?

[C.J.]

Sounds like you got what you wanted in the end.

 

[CoJ]

Lol. My wife says I usually do....

 

[highup]

Time spent during the beginning of the project is time saved during the finishing stages. If the tile guys had a piece of the hardwood for reference and knew it was going to be butted flush, they could have made sure the tile was a consistent height by using the hardwood to check it with. Then they just woulda had to make sure the tile edges were straight. Now you have an acceptable tile surface to bump the hardwood to and making clean cuts is not hard at all. People are just lazy. Best case scenario is lackadaisical but I’m going with lazy. Sippin on your coffee for 10 minutes while going over the details of the job woulda eliminated this whole situation. The other problems, well that’s another cup of coffee and another 10 minutes. Look at that, I just solved the worlds problems in 20 minutes.

I think you totally lost it. Coffee, discussions, details? Get help soon. I'm worried about you.
That ain't gonna ever happen.

 

[highup]

Lol. My wife says I usually do....

I like the way you handled the situation.

 

[C.J.]

I think you totally lost it. Coffee, discussions, details? Get help soon. I'm worried about you.
That ain't gonna ever happen.

See, you can learn a thing or two from workin for a box store Everybody knows those jobs are measured and sold by dummies. They’re just a big revolving wheel of customers. Plenty of opportunities for mistakes to be made. The installers aren’t much better at times so if you have a system full of dummies, you gotta dummy proof it. What better way then with a checklist made for dummies. So simple yet very effective.

Everything is done on the (smart) phone now but a couple years ago they would have a pre install checklist to fill out that you printed out with your work order packet. They need to bring that back! You go over and confirm all the details with the customer before you even start. Correct product? Check. Correct amount of product? Check. Product direction and seam placement? Check. Rooms? Check. Furniture? Check. Appliances? Check. Moisture readings? Check. Transitions? Check. If it was important it was on the list. Pretty much follow the list and cover all the bases with the customer while you’re still sipping your coffee. Any discrepancies are caught right then and there and can be dealt with before you even start tearing up the customers life. How simple is that. So simple that hardly any shop does it. Why is all I ask.

The project manager for my shop used to do HD work once upon a time so he knows about this stuff. He does the final walk through and punch with the customers. What! That’s the installers job right before they get a signature. No signature and you’re not done! That’s part of the problem right there. You make the installer fix their **** right then and there, with the customer watching (usually), if they want to get a signature. No signature, no money. Having someone else do the final walk through and punch just reinforces the slam it in and go mentality.

 

[zannej]

CJ, that sounds like a very good idea. I'm a fan of making sure the installer and customer both know the details of what is expected and that it is written down very clearly. I'm so nitpicky that I pretty much plan out exact locations for things.
I was watching a video of a guy doing plumbing (who didn't really know what he was doing) who said the blueprints had called for a 2x6 wall but the builders and put 2x4 in. Right then I would have called them and said "This is not what was in the plans & this is not acceptable". But he just stuck chunks of furring strips on to the boards. I would have made them re-do it bc if I was paying for 2x6 walls, I better get 2x6 walls. LOL.
Don't mind my digression. My brain is out of it today.

 

[C.J.]

I really liked the checklist for a few reasons:

1. It clearly spelled out what was and what wasn’t going to be done and how it was or wasn’t going to be done. This eliminates a lot of BS after the fact. If there was a discrepancy, I got on the phone right then and there with my people as well as the customer could get on the phone with their people. None of this ‘I thought…’ crap was able to be pulled after the fact because we all know that the installer is the one that gets tossed under the bus. Not this guy!

2. It clearly spelled out what I was going to get paid for. Just as many a detail related to the job was overlooked, many a labor line was overlooked as well. Trying to get paid for something after you’ve already done it is darn near impossible. I don’t care if it’s only $5. I don’t work for free.

3. It confirmed that all the material was there and that it was the correct material. If something small was missing, I called early enough that someone could bring it to me before I was done with the job. If it was the wrong material then I went home and someone else can deal with getting the correct material to the customers house. I’m not your pick up and delivery bitch, I install floors.

 

[highup]

See, you can learn a thing or two from workin for a box store Everybody knows those jobs are measured and sold by dummies. They’re just a big revolving wheel of customers. Plenty of opportunities for mistakes to be made. The installers aren’t much better at times so if you have a system full of dummies, you gotta dummy proof it. What better way then with a checklist made for dummies. So simple yet very effective.

Everything is done on the (smart) phone now but a couple years ago they would have a pre install checklist to fill out that you printed out with your work order packet. They need to bring that back! You go over and confirm all the details with the customer before you even start. Correct product? Check. Correct amount of product? Check. Product direction and seam placement? Check. Rooms? Check. Furniture? Check. Appliances? Check. Moisture readings? Check. Transitions? Check. If it was important it was on the list. Pretty much follow the list and cover all the bases with the customer while you’re still sipping your coffee. Any discrepancies are caught right then and there and can be dealt with before you even start tearing up the customers life. How simple is that. So simple that hardly any shop does it. Why is all I ask.

The project manager for my shop used to do HD work once upon a time so he knows about this stuff. He does the final walk through and punch with the customers. What! That’s the installers job right before they get a signature. No signature and you’re not done! That’s part of the problem right there. You make the installer fix their **** right then and there, with the customer watching (usually), if they want to get a signature. No signature, no money. Having someone else do the final walk through and punch just reinforces the slam it in and go mentality.

In the past 45 + years, I don't recall being told seam placement.
It should be obvious to anyone that seams should be located here and there, and over by that and parallel with the left side.

 

[C.J.]

In the past 45 + years, I don't recall being told seam placement.
It should be obvious to anyone that seams should be located here and there, and over by that and parallel with the left side.

That’s because you’re old school and you actually know how to lay floors. There is an art to it. A philosophy. With the box stores the reality is it’s not really about installing a floor, even though you are physically installing a floor. You’re fulfilling a contractual obligation and sometimes how that contractual obligation is written is stupid. 3 piece fills in every room? Seams in hallways? Often times common sense things are just assumed. You’re dealing with computer generated layouts. Maximized usage of material with no fluff room for reality. Everything is based on theory, not reality. Now throw in the average installer that can pass a background check and that is willing to work for box store prices and you can see how things can go wrong in a quickness.

Now if you know the pitfalls of how this type of system operates, you can avoid a lot of problems by simply asking questions and covering your bases ahead of time. Victims don’t ask questions. Don’t be a victim. Follow the check list. If something ain’t right you gotta deal with it right then and there. You might even have to play the game and throw it back on someone else. Doesn’t seem right, does it. Well it ain’t but that’s how it is in that world.

Anyway, never mind how the box stores operate, I still really do like the idea of a checklist for its ability to prevent a lot of problems before they become problems.

 

[highup]

That’s because you’re old school and you actually know how to lay floors. There is an art to it. A philosophy. With the box stores the reality is it’s not really about installing a floor, even though you are physically installing a floor. You’re fulfilling a contractual obligation and sometimes how that contractual obligation is written is stupid. 3 piece fills in every room? Seams in hallways? Often times common sense things are just assumed. You’re dealing with computer generated layouts. Maximized usage of material with no fluff room for reality. Everything is based on theory, not reality. Now throw in the average installer that can pass a background check and that is willing to work for box store prices and you can see how things can go wrong in a quickness.

Now if you know the pitfalls of how this type of system operates, you can avoid a lot of problems by simply asking questions and covering your bases ahead of time. Victims don’t ask questions. Don’t be a victim. Follow the check list. If something ain’t right you gotta deal with it right then and there. You might even have to play the game and throw it back on someone else. Doesn’t seem right, does it. Well it ain’t but that’s how it is in that world.

Anyway, never mind how the box stores operate, I still really do like the idea of a checklist for its ability to prevent a lot of problems before they become problems.

We have that checklist problem too it's non-existent. Simple stuff like number and type of transitions and whether the job is concrete or wood. You end up walking into a job and being totally surprised because it's not at all what you expected. I always visit the job first so I can figure my own layout and cut lengths.

 

[C.J.]

When I first started laying floors I worked for a Carpet One dealer that had a checklist for the sales people that covered those kinds of things. That and they used installers that knew what they were doing. Very little problems. It’s a different world out there now, especially with the box stores. You think those morons wearing an orange apron know how to lay a floor beyond the video they just watched?

So speaking of this new world I really do like the online portal that the box stores have for their installers. You can look at the measure, the work order, see what product has been selected, any pictures taken by the measure person… It lets you get the job in your head so you’re not walking in blind. I hate that. I need details so I can think about the job before the job happens. Back in the day an installer would sit down with the sales person and go over the details of an upcoming job. An installer portal is just the modern day equivalent of doing that. Shoot, I would even google street view the address to give me an idea of what kind of customer I was working for. Best part was if I felt the job was a sack of S, I would pass on it. I was able to say no a week or weeks before the day of so that way I wasn’t leaving anybody hanging the day of by walking off a job although I have had to do that a time or three. In fact I had a job for today that I said no to. Pissed off customer that someone else botched their job a couple times and ruined their baseboards in the process. They wanted me to cut and hang new base. I’d rather take the day off than deal with a pissed off customer. Funny, I told the old man no and he hung up on me. Zero F’s given.

 

[DarisMulkin]

One of the big things I required on our checklists was how the steps were to be installed. If not told I automatically waterfalled as that was my favorite look. I got hooked on that once. I also followed the diagram to a "T", if in doubt I called the store. I almost got caught on that also as the pattern didn't end up where the customer wanted it. Store tried to get me on that also, I just told them I have the diagram, let's go to court. They backed down.