Why Help DIY'rs?
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DennisT
Well-Known Member
I'm a DIY guy. Sometimes I do it because I want to save money, sometimes because I just want to, sometimes because I cannot find someone that is willing or can do what I want.
Recently I learned how to install exterior stucco moldings. The stucco guys were wiling to do it, only their way. A pro may say I was dumb doing it my way. The stucco pros wanted to chop and spray the molding. Tight cuts wasn't they were willing to do. And then spray it? really? Did I screw it up? I've had 3 different pros (including the stucco guys) comment on how good it looks.
I then wanted stone siding done. $4K for labor only? Then why was I able to do it in 3 weekends and it looks great?
I have a flooring project coming up. We have already bought the flooring. Sometimes you find something and it's just right for the project you have, but the company has no local presence. I've contacted 6 different companies. Only 3 even bothered to respond, one only that they only install what they sell. One guy sounded real good, only he bailed at the last second before his 1st visit. Of 6 attempts I was able to get one installer to come out to look at it. My impressions? He may me very good at straight line bang them out jobs. This isn't. When I'm looking to pay a pro the last thing I want to hear is how he cannot do the job.
I know what I want is doable. I also know I'll be able to do it myself. It'll take a while and my knees will be REALLY sore. Would I hire a pro to do it? Yes, if I can find one and he/she doesn't want to send their kids through college on this one job.
The information I get on forums such as this is appreciated greatly. A thread may have only a few posts, but may be read by hundreds of lurkers like myself. We may not post anything, but the help is greatly appreciated.
Recently I learned how to install exterior stucco moldings. The stucco guys were wiling to do it, only their way. A pro may say I was dumb doing it my way. The stucco pros wanted to chop and spray the molding. Tight cuts wasn't they were willing to do. And then spray it? really? Did I screw it up? I've had 3 different pros (including the stucco guys) comment on how good it looks.
I then wanted stone siding done. $4K for labor only? Then why was I able to do it in 3 weekends and it looks great?
I have a flooring project coming up. We have already bought the flooring. Sometimes you find something and it's just right for the project you have, but the company has no local presence. I've contacted 6 different companies. Only 3 even bothered to respond, one only that they only install what they sell. One guy sounded real good, only he bailed at the last second before his 1st visit. Of 6 attempts I was able to get one installer to come out to look at it. My impressions? He may me very good at straight line bang them out jobs. This isn't. When I'm looking to pay a pro the last thing I want to hear is how he cannot do the job.
I know what I want is doable. I also know I'll be able to do it myself. It'll take a while and my knees will be REALLY sore. Would I hire a pro to do it? Yes, if I can find one and he/she doesn't want to send their kids through college on this one job.
The information I get on forums such as this is appreciated greatly. A thread may have only a few posts, but may be read by hundreds of lurkers like myself. We may not post anything, but the help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks for this great post Dennis, we really appreciate it!
Yes, Dennis, thank you very much.
Good post, Dennis. I can appreciate what your saying. But those things happen. Contractors want to make the mark up on the wood plus the install. Many people may think your just a tire kicker and dont want to waste their time, gas running ou there to give you a bid for a small project when they are busy. Especially when they can read that your just looking for advice as a DIY'r. Been there done that, people only wanting to glean information from you on a free quote.
If I knew you were not honest about paying for a pro, I would not come over either.
The final result of your DIY project may look great to you. But in all reality, if a pro did the same quality job you did you'd be whining on some forum about how he did a crappy job.
You have to remember, contractors have over head, like for instance much like your employer does. What does he charge for your services? Some may have to pay workmens comp, pay three employees,materials,sundries, healthcare, cost of vehicles, taxes for their employees etc. Its not all gravy profit buddy. Three weekends, thats a whole six day week of pay.
Some lawyers bill out at $1,000 an hour, does not mean that lawyer gets all that money. He gets a percentage of it. He has the boss who wants to make money on it, why, because it's a business. He has office personell, he has the office space, he has legal secretary's and more people he has to pay for. Its a business. Some locksmiths bill out at $150.00 an hour, the guy doing the work gets one third of that if he is lucky. Handymen bill out here at $75.00 an hour, but get paid $15.00 an hour.
If you had called me I woulda been out there with bells and whistles on my toesies.
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DennisT
Well-Known Member
I'm somewhat blessed in that my DIY skills are well beyond the normal DIY. I hire pros to do work for me and I am fussy about what they do. I'm willing to pay (within reason) but I expect the job to be as good as I can do. I can walk into a new multi million dollar home and immediately start pointing out things that were done wrong. And as we all know, that's just the lipstick that covers all the things done underneath.
I cannot look at anything I've done and say it's perfect. I see every little wart and spot. I may take pride in a job, but if I were to do it over I wouldn't make all those mistakes that no one else seems to see. Perhaps that's why my skills are where they're at. I'm always taking a critical look and saying I could have done that better of only I had ...
The flooring project I have is ~700sqft. Would I pay $3000 for it. No. Would I pay $2100? Yes, if the installer can convince me they do it properly. Is $2K cheap? You tell me.
I'm very aware of business costs. I deal with them every day and am probably better versed in cost management than most contractors/subs/etc. That's not to say they don't know what they're doing. They are construction pros, not accountants.
Do I glean info when I get bids? You bet I do. Any quote is a learniing process for both parties. Say I have 3 contractors come out to do bids. One points out serveral things that are important to consider, and some will add to the cost. That contractor is 10% more expensive that the other 2. The other 2 come out, take a look and say little. Some of the things we discuss were brought up by the 1st. I hold back a few just to see if they mention it. I'll almost always go with the contractor that demonstrates they have the best understanding and is willing to do a top notch job, even if they're 10% more.
I doubt you'd come out to do my job. You're in AZ and I'm in CA. A bit of a drive.
I cannot look at anything I've done and say it's perfect. I see every little wart and spot. I may take pride in a job, but if I were to do it over I wouldn't make all those mistakes that no one else seems to see. Perhaps that's why my skills are where they're at. I'm always taking a critical look and saying I could have done that better of only I had ...
The flooring project I have is ~700sqft. Would I pay $3000 for it. No. Would I pay $2100? Yes, if the installer can convince me they do it properly. Is $2K cheap? You tell me.
I'm very aware of business costs. I deal with them every day and am probably better versed in cost management than most contractors/subs/etc. That's not to say they don't know what they're doing. They are construction pros, not accountants.
Do I glean info when I get bids? You bet I do. Any quote is a learniing process for both parties. Say I have 3 contractors come out to do bids. One points out serveral things that are important to consider, and some will add to the cost. That contractor is 10% more expensive that the other 2. The other 2 come out, take a look and say little. Some of the things we discuss were brought up by the 1st. I hold back a few just to see if they mention it. I'll almost always go with the contractor that demonstrates they have the best understanding and is willing to do a top notch job, even if they're 10% more.
I doubt you'd come out to do my job. You're in AZ and I'm in CA. A bit of a drive.
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I have a flooring project coming up. We have already bought the flooring. Sometimes you find something and it's just right for the project you have, but the company has no local presence. I've contacted 6 different companies. Only 3 even bothered to respond, one only that they only install what they sell. One guy sounded real good, only he bailed at the last second before his 1st visit. Of 6 attempts I was able to get one installer to come out to look at it. My impressions? He may me very good at straight line bang them out jobs. This isn't. When I'm looking to pay a pro the last thing I want to hear is how he cannot do the job.
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Did you happen to get references from the one and only contractor you could find in the Bay Area where there might be hundreds of contractors? I used to work San Jose. I know there are many many proficient contractors in the area. I think you just gave up because you think you gleaned enough facts about the job to make yourself think you'd be comfortable enough to do it.Not trying to be mean, just saying I've run into that kind of person plenty of times. When I explain what things need addressing and they want specific detail, products, tools used, time it takes etc. I'm not going to give away the house and get into great detail, I give them industry standards and a price which should be enough. I have the numbers of proficient hardwood contractors up there, but they're not cheap.
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The flooring project I have is ~700sqft. Would I pay $3000 for it. No. Would I pay $2100? Yes, if the installer can convince me they do it properly. Is $2K cheap? You tell me.
Exactly 700sqft of what? For VCT it would be kinda high on the low end of the scale of flooring projects depending on what your substrate needs. Now if your talking a hardwood job thats not straight lay, then yes, more than likely it may be MORE than 3 grand. Sounds like your wanting straight lay for a difficult layout and design.
I'm very aware of business costs. I deal with them every day and am probably better versed in cost management than most contractors/subs/etc. That's not to say they don't know what they're doing. They are construction pros, not accountants.
Thats touching. Contractors need to make a profit. No profit and you might as well go work at Valmart for peanuts. Problem is out there is that most people dont compare apples to apples. They compare the lowball unlicensed handyman to contractors who may be on the high end of the scale that performs jobs beyond industry standards on a consistant basis. Most consumers do not understand the difference between the two.
I doubt you'd come out to do my job. You're in AZ and I'm in CA. A bit of a drive.
Actually thats specifically why I put together my www.floorsavior.com website. Originally intended to join up with another high quality craftsman for the consumer who cannot find a qualified contractor in their area, or who are disenchanted with the quality of contractors available in their area or state and cannot find anyone willing to fix screwups.
It was supposed to go Tri-State; AZ, So. Cal, and Nevada until he decided he could not do it because of personal issues. I do quite a few jobs out of town for people like this and repair quite a few jobs installed improperly. Those people are willing to pay more than the going rate. Some are easier to fix and I give them a break.
I also field plenty of calls from consumers country wide and into Canada who have found the www.floorsavior.com site whom are having issues and cannot find a decent answer from DIY forums. Theres a paypal donation icon on the back contact page. Yes, people send me money for online/phone consultation as it should be. Kinda like a lawyer or maybe a doctor, course the doctor will make you come into his office. My office is my smart phone.
Lastly, I would go over there to perform your job beyond insustry standards as I have quite a few resources there and contacts with other superior contractors there who do likewise. But I seriously doubt you would be willing to pony up the funds.
I've driven Tucson to Dublin CA. in a minimum of 16 hours straight, including potty/food stops many times as I used to live in Dublin.
There's actually people who do travel across the country to do work like that.
If you could provide me with more information about your project, along with detailed pictures with precise layout measurements design criteria/product I would be happy to fire off an estimate. Course that estimate would include travel time/costs, hotel and food accomidations and probably some tool rental costs, plus sudries of course unless you provide some of that. But if you provide food you better be a good cook.
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DennisT
Well-Known Member
The one installer I met with was recommended to me. It became obvious almost immediately that he wasn't interested. The material was unfamiliar to him. His 1st response was no, and only when pressed did he admit that maybe what I wanted to be done could be done (after I suggested cutting and using splines). His time estimate (obviously he was guessing) to cut one end and route it for a spline was 1/2 hour. I'm no pro, but if anyone is paying piece rate @ $4 I'll do it all day long and deal with the guilt later (in my new Lexus/Corvette/whatever). I do understand where his head was at. Time is money and doing something new that he was unfamiliar with just wasn't worth the risk.
I'm sure there are decent installers here. I just haven't been able to find any. Almost everyone sells the material they install and aren't interested in
installing something they're not making a cut off of.
I've been able to address some other aspects of the project that gives me the time to tackle the flooring myself. This weekend I'll start on a small part (80sqft of floating cork). The hardwood and stone will come after I get the kitchen together.
As for the material I have, subfloor condition, etc I think that's best left for another thread as going into that would be taking this one even farther off topic.
I'm sure there are decent installers here. I just haven't been able to find any. Almost everyone sells the material they install and aren't interested in
installing something they're not making a cut off of.
I've been able to address some other aspects of the project that gives me the time to tackle the flooring myself. This weekend I'll start on a small part (80sqft of floating cork). The hardwood and stone will come after I get the kitchen together.
As for the material I have, subfloor condition, etc I think that's best left for another thread as going into that would be taking this one even farther off topic.
That piece rate makes no sense what so ever. $4 dollars to throw in a spline, maybe $400 dollars. For the bay area thats a decent price for a fix with a spline, and router for a repair. Your one of those white collar worker guys who hate the thought of a blue collar worker making as much as you do and driving the same or better automobile as you do. Tisk tisk tisk that he should make good money and send his kids to college, You'd probably frown on him if he moved in next door.
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DennisT
Well-Known Member
On forums such as this there are those who seem to have it together. Then there are the few who don't. To those that do, again, thanks for your help.
Seriously Dennis? If you go on many pro forums theres always the chance your going to run inot plenty of persons like myself who have that anti-DIY attitude.
This forum was not designed as a DIY forum initially I believe. Go over and ask questions at http://www.floormasters.com/flooring-pros/viewforum.php?f=1&sid=512c438ed26efc3cc05c2e8cd5089a11 and see what happens.
That is like the third time you mentioned the Lexus/Corvette thing. How is it you think we are like a lower class worker that does not deserve to drive a higher end automobile?
I guess I called you correctly and hit a nerve. I can get $4 a sqft here in Tucson, wages are almost double in the bay area than here so how is it you think they do not deserve $4 a sqft?
As a DIY'r I appreciate when a pro is willing to answer a question and offer advice and it may even result in giving the pro work at some point or recommending him/her.
A pro on another forum was really great about answering my questions and offering advice. I was so impressed with him that I asked if he would like to do some work on my house....that never would have happened if he hadn't been so helpful. I know some pros think it is taking work away from them but if a DIY'r wants to do it the pro isn't going to get the work anyway. If a pro gives some free advice and the DIY'r can't handle the work might he just call that pro who was willing to give the advice? If it were me and one pro gave me advice and one pro wouldn't then if I needed to hire a pro guess which one I'm going to call.
A pro on another forum was really great about answering my questions and offering advice. I was so impressed with him that I asked if he would like to do some work on my house....that never would have happened if he hadn't been so helpful. I know some pros think it is taking work away from them but if a DIY'r wants to do it the pro isn't going to get the work anyway. If a pro gives some free advice and the DIY'r can't handle the work might he just call that pro who was willing to give the advice? If it were me and one pro gave me advice and one pro wouldn't then if I needed to hire a pro guess which one I'm going to call.
I help DIYers when I can. I recently did a carpet job where a DIYer had done his own ceramic about a week before. The kitchen had a crack running all he way across it. The local Big Box "expert" had him install 18 x 18 tile on the 3/4" plywood subfloor with mastic. I just did my job and did not say anything.
Probably 90% of the laminate and ceramic here is DIYer installed. And at least 2/3 of what I see done by DIYers is butchered. The problem is that many don't ask advice and those that do, don't listen to it.
As a matter of policy, I don't fix their mistakes. If they want it done right, either ask me how and follow my advice or have me install it.
Probably 90% of the laminate and ceramic here is DIYer installed. And at least 2/3 of what I see done by DIYers is butchered. The problem is that many don't ask advice and those that do, don't listen to it.
As a matter of policy, I don't fix their mistakes. If they want it done right, either ask me how and follow my advice or have me install it.
My thoughts on the topic...
I work as moderator or administrator on 13 various forums. The forums are set up as a place where a novice person can learn by asking the professional questions. The professional person not only learn themselves, but is also rewarded with helping others who need answers. The professional person is also provided a large signature area where they are allowed to advertise their business free of charge. This way, both entities are helped.
I'll be the first to admit that I am not a professional when it comes to flooring. Yes, I have done pretty much all that is spoken about in this forum, but I am far from being a professional. Everything I have learned came from a forum rather than a classroom or a book. I read forums to learn, and have no problem offering some of my knowledge to others. I don't expect any payback, but receiving a nice PM or a public thanks goes a long way as my only reward.
I work as moderator or administrator on 13 various forums. The forums are set up as a place where a novice person can learn by asking the professional questions. The professional person not only learn themselves, but is also rewarded with helping others who need answers. The professional person is also provided a large signature area where they are allowed to advertise their business free of charge. This way, both entities are helped.
I'll be the first to admit that I am not a professional when it comes to flooring. Yes, I have done pretty much all that is spoken about in this forum, but I am far from being a professional. Everything I have learned came from a forum rather than a classroom or a book. I read forums to learn, and have no problem offering some of my knowledge to others. I don't expect any payback, but receiving a nice PM or a public thanks goes a long way as my only reward.
DennisT
Well-Known Member
??? 1+0 = 3?
If you feel that attacking me makes you a better person by all means continue. For the sake of the forum though, plase take it to PMs. That way other members don't have to read it and I can give it the attention it deserves.
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Dude, he's not attacking you. You asked for advice and then said you didn't agree with it. Just let it be. No one is forcing you to continue to post. Ernesto is a regular contributor to this forum and knows far more than most when it comes to flooring. Be respectful of the pros taking time to answer questions please and if you don't then stop posting. We don't need negativity on this forum especially from people that aren't taking the advice we give for FREE.
FloorMaven
Well-Known Member
I used to have an '89 that a ran estimates with...on more than one occasion a prospective customer commented on not wanting to "support my hobby".
it seems to me that an equally good question would be----why help the pros?----as with any questions in life the basic format is---Whats in it for me?----speaking for myself i get more contentment helping those that have taken the time and effort to ask for help than dealing with the delicate little egos that populate the pit of vipers that is the flooring business---just my opinion
