FloorMaven
Well-Known Member
I'd be interested to read any theories explaining the appearance of wrinkles in properly installed carpet when RH is increased 20%-40% somewhat suddenly.
Wrinkle Theories
- Thread starter FloorMaven
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What is suddenly?? Like a flood? I think it is just that the material or the surrounding area can't acclimate fast enough.
Daris
FloorMaven
Well-Known Member
RH increase due to a change in weather. Why would wrinkles remain after environment returns to normal drier conditions?
LeePelletier
Well-Known Member
First thought: Wasn't power stretched.
But, I had one carpet years ago that just kept stretching and stretching. It's a long time ago. Carpet was made by Beaulieu.
Anyway, client called after a year or two to say they had wrinkles in the carpet. I sent an installer out to restretch the carpet, and he cut a good amount out of it.
Client calls again a year later. Same thing.
Client calls again about another year later. This time when the installer comes back, he comes back with over a foot of carpet he stretched and cut out of this carpet. Over a foot! The room is only about 12' x 14'. It's only weeks before the client has wrinkles again.
Beaulieu ended up replacing the carpet. I would guess they were testing some new backing. What a disastrous test that was! While rare, extremely rare, this experience leaves me open to consider the possibility (but definitely not the probability) that it is not installation related.
Having said that, carpet is a fabric, so it will be affected by temperature and humidity. Perhaps a rapid enough change can cause problems that we don't see in normal situations?
But, I had one carpet years ago that just kept stretching and stretching. It's a long time ago. Carpet was made by Beaulieu.
Anyway, client called after a year or two to say they had wrinkles in the carpet. I sent an installer out to restretch the carpet, and he cut a good amount out of it.
Client calls again a year later. Same thing.
Client calls again about another year later. This time when the installer comes back, he comes back with over a foot of carpet he stretched and cut out of this carpet. Over a foot! The room is only about 12' x 14'. It's only weeks before the client has wrinkles again.
Beaulieu ended up replacing the carpet. I would guess they were testing some new backing. What a disastrous test that was! While rare, extremely rare, this experience leaves me open to consider the possibility (but definitely not the probability) that it is not installation related.
Having said that, carpet is a fabric, so it will be affected by temperature and humidity. Perhaps a rapid enough change can cause problems that we don't see in normal situations?
Lee, that sounds like Typar backing. You could restretch it almost weekly. It was a new backing that was a complete failure. I believe the mill replaced most of it eventually. Although Dupont still lists it on their website.
FloorMaven
Well-Known Member
LeePelletier said:
Consider all installation guidelines were followed including acclimation. Backing being conventional. Are you saying fabric absorbs moisture and increases in volume enough to cause wrinkles?
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LeePelletier
Well-Known Member
Moisture will affect it at some point. Get a flood, and it will be affected for sure, irregardless of acclimation or installation technique. The question is, just how far can you go before you start noticing issues? These are questions that manufacturers don't always answer.
When RH changes 40% over a day, 99.9999% of call carpets are OK. But when RH changes 40% over several minutes, what happens then? That would be an extremely rare occurence, which is why mills don't document it as an issue, but it COULD be an issue. We just don't know.
Furthermore, a rapid change in RH could possibly cause condensation on a slab. Now we have liquid moisture.
The problem is, I can't diagnose the problem remotely. Only offer potential ideas.
The other problem is: If the humidity change was weather related, is this one carpet affected in the area and all other carpets in surrounding homes OK? If that's the case, I don't think the rapid RH increase is the issue.
When RH changes 40% over a day, 99.9999% of call carpets are OK. But when RH changes 40% over several minutes, what happens then? That would be an extremely rare occurence, which is why mills don't document it as an issue, but it COULD be an issue. We just don't know.
Furthermore, a rapid change in RH could possibly cause condensation on a slab. Now we have liquid moisture.
The problem is, I can't diagnose the problem remotely. Only offer potential ideas.
The other problem is: If the humidity change was weather related, is this one carpet affected in the area and all other carpets in surrounding homes OK? If that's the case, I don't think the rapid RH increase is the issue.
FloorMaven
Well-Known Member
I'm trying to understand why a synthetic (nylon face fiber and conventional high pick actionbac) tufted, residential carpet installed to at least minimum guidelines would increase in overall volume due to an increase in ambient RH? RH and temp maintained within CRI guidelines (65-95 F & max 65% RH).
What I'm extracting from the cacophony here is that the fiber is expanding due to the absorption of moisture from the air. So much so that it is displacing or crowding the surrounding yarn causing the carpet to show visible signs of expansion, i.e. wrinkle.
I understand the dimensional stability of nylon and that it can increase in weight not necessarily dimension up to 6% due to moisture absorption. These facts taken into consideration- why would the backing expand? Would the moisture wick down into the bundle wrap thereby increasing the volume of the backing, and if so when the moisture dissipates why does the carpet continue to be wrinkled?
What I'm extracting from the cacophony here is that the fiber is expanding due to the absorption of moisture from the air. So much so that it is displacing or crowding the surrounding yarn causing the carpet to show visible signs of expansion, i.e. wrinkle.
I understand the dimensional stability of nylon and that it can increase in weight not necessarily dimension up to 6% due to moisture absorption. These facts taken into consideration- why would the backing expand? Would the moisture wick down into the bundle wrap thereby increasing the volume of the backing, and if so when the moisture dissipates why does the carpet continue to be wrinkled?
I bet it is that fine Georgian dirt they mix in with the latex. I should shrink back to its original size, ever see carpet thats wrinkled immediately after a good cleaning? I've had calls to come restretch and told them to wait a day or two. They call back and say it shrank back. But, if it is in a heavy traffic area perhaps the traffic or heavy soiled carpets will not return to normal appearance.
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That is a good question Floor Maven. It might have wrinkled with or with out the rise in rh even though you power stretched it and I will bet it wrinkled in the width. I do alot of restretches and wonder why they wrinkle in the with only. Even if the installer kicked in a room 12 x 40 it only wrinkles in the width, you would think that the width would be tighter than the length.Why do some carpets wrinkle and others do not? The only thing I can think of is that the primary is under so much tension when tufted and then married to the secondary that has no tension. Something changes in the eviorment and whala wrinkle. What are you thinking happened?
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That is something I have always wondered too, why they wrinkle in the width first. Almost everything I have ever restretched only had width wrinkles. They were loose in the length but didn't have wrinkles. Just figured it had to do with construction.
FloorMaven
Well-Known Member
If you rule out that the material should be evenly stretched in length and width and that is often not possible along with installers trying to avoid peaking seams that theory could hold water.
I think it's likely that every piece of material has its own individual expansion coefficient. I just can't seem to wrap my head around in what part of the construction this growth takes place that has such a profound effect.
Personally I think it is the weft cords. They are much bigger in the width of the product and when they start breaking down Walla!
Daris
FloorMaven
Well-Known Member
I'm guessing "Walla" is some sort of technical term that describes the result of backing deterioration. I'm really interested in why a healthy piece of material would "Walla".
Boy "Walla" is about as technical as you can get. You never heard that used before?
Daris
Daris
FloorMaven
Well-Known Member
Maybe in conjunction with abracadabra.
No, its like you are wanting to get something done and all of a sudden "walla" its done. You don't get out often do you?
Daris
Daris
FloorMaven
Well-Known Member
So, it's not like magic?
