Gun free zone

[Floorist]

Quote:

This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future! – Adolph Hitler, 1935, on The Weapons Act of Nazi Germany

Quote:
Quote:


Quote:

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subordinate people to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subordinate people to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country." --Adolf Hitler, dinner talk on April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitler's Table Talk 1941-44: His Private Conversations




Quote:

"Waiting periods are only a step.
Registration is only a step.
The prohibition of private firearms is the goal." Janet Reno




Quote:

"Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed
when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed." Sarah Brady





Quote:

"We're bending the law as far as we can
to ban... guns." Rahm Emmanuel




Quote:

"There is no reason for anyone in this country -- anyone except a police officer or military person -- to buy, to own, to have, to use a handgun. The only way to control handgun use in this country is to prohibit all guns." Bill Clinton






Quote:

"If the opposition (citizen) disarms, well and good.
If it refuses to disarm, we shall disarm it ourselves." Josef Stalin






Quote:

"A system of licensing and registration is the perfect device
to deny gun ownership to the people." Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

 

[zannej]

I'm on the fence about licensing and registration. Some people have suggested insurance, but if it would be anything like home, vehicle, or medical insurance, it would make it so people with lower income would not be able to afford it.

I do absolutely believe in having a national database of people who are barred from purchasing guns and having long enough waiting periods to confirm that someone is not on the "do not sell to" list. But, there are still some problems with who could be put on that list. If someone in political power decides they don't want people of the opposing party to be able to have guns, they could put them on the list.

 

[Floorist]

I'm on the fence about licensing and registration. Some people have suggested insurance, but if it would be anything like home, vehicle, or medical insurance, it would make it so people with lower income would not be able to afford it.

I do absolutely believe in having a national database of people who are barred from purchasing guns and having long enough waiting periods to confirm that someone is not on the "do not sell to" list. But, there are still some problems with who could be put on that list. If someone in political power decides they don't want people of the opposing party to be able to have guns, they could put them on the list.

Right now there are people on the "no fly" list by mistake. The late senator Ted Kennedy was on it by mistake.

 

[highup]

I'm on the fence about licensing and registration. Some people have suggested insurance, but if it would be anything like home, vehicle, or medical insurance, it would make it so people with lower income would not be able to afford it.

I do absolutely believe in having a national database of people who are barred from purchasing guns and having long enough waiting periods to confirm that someone is not on the "do not sell to" list. But, there are still some problems with who could be put on that list. If someone in political power decides they don't want people of the opposing party to be able to have guns, they could put them on the list.

It not an easy decision. But remember, that once you have a gun registered they know right where to go to collect it when Adolph gets elected and he or she makes an "executive" decision.

 

[zannej]

It not an easy decision. But remember, that once you have a gun registered they know right where to go to collect it when Adolph gets elected and he or she makes an "executive" decision.

Yeah, that's why I was unnerved when Trump started spouting off about wanting to "take the guns early" and then do background checks. And Feinstein pisses me off with her "take all the guns away" spiel. I have some friends who are extreme right who are absolutely against any form of gun control and then I have some who are extreme left who want to disarm the country. I believe in middle ground and having a meeting of the minds. If people could stop with the bipartisan arguments and try to work together instead of flinging mud at each other, maybe it might help us come up with some sort of viable solution.

For instance, if someone is a convicted felon who is not allowed to own a gun, by all means, put them in a database. If someone has a mental illness and has been flagged by a psychologist as being a danger to others-- no gun purchases allowed. But, I do worry that if we have another power imbalance in the government with one party having more power than the other, the group in power may use it to put people with different political affiliation on the list.

Since we do have hunting licenses, I think it might be ok to have licenses to have guns and people should complete gun safety training of some sort-- but it will not make them register the number and types of guns they have. A person may choose to get a license that needs to be renewed say every 10 years for a small fee but it won't mean they actually have a gun, just that they can carry one. And I'm all for extra safety measures being built in to guns so they are harder for small children to fire and less likely to go off accidentally. I'm also in favor of having better security/accountability at gun factories. I've read that a lot of gun parts and sometimes entire guns go missing and turn up in the hands of mafia/criminals. I don't know what the requirements are to work at a gun factory, but I would hope they have background checks and will not hire convicted felons or people who are not allowed to own firearms.

 

[Floorist]

The next "march" is on April 20, Hitler's birthday.

 

[Floorist]

I borrowed this:

There are approximately 16 million high school students in the US each year.

If you take the body count of all kids slain in school shootings in the last 25 years, it is 10 kids per year.

Every day, 11 teenagers die because of texting while driving.

The reason 10 per year is so much more horrifying than 11 per day is because teenagers dying 11 per day in distracted driving accidents is part of the plan, and 10 per year dying in a shooting is not part of the plan. Amazing how perception gets skewed by what we culturally accept as "the plan" and how it affects our thinking.

You'd think that more people killed in one day by Thing A than are killed each year by Thing B would make people react more seriously to Thing A, but expected vs unexpected dictates a great deal about how hysterical people get.

We've come to expect the totally needless death toll of texting while driving, and yeah, we have advocacy, pamphlets and slogans aplenty, but nobody ever says ban cars and/or cell phones, or raise the driving age to 21. We expect those deaths as part of doing the business of daily life in the US. And most people are cool with those deaths because they aren't teenagers, they don't have teenage children, and/or it's not really trumpeted by the media. Same as the vast number of gun related homicide being inner city "warfare" for lack of a better word. Business as usual, nothing real newsworthy, price of business in the inner city.

Massive death tolls that kill daily get ignored because they are expected and worse, accepted. But have a random one/twice a year event involving far fewer total bodies and let the media latch onto it, now it is "unprecedented" and we must all manifest some level of hysteria. The same thing happened after 9-11. We flipped society upside down for an event that is far less likely than being hit by a bolt of lightning...twice. Why? Because we know teenagers texting while driving is dangerous, but we aren't in the car with them.

We know inner city thugs are killing each other in the inner city, but I don't live there, so whatever. But al Qaeda made me scared of airplanes and tall buildings and Nikolas Cruz made me scared of school!! So we freak out over the small and unexpected event because it could - by some stroke of extraordinary bad luck on par with winning the lottery three times - happen to me, and just languidly shrug off the daily bad news and massive body counts because none of that can happen, not to me anyway.

Fear is an amazing and wildly irrational thing

 

[zannej]

I think April 20 is my cousin's birthday. It's also marijuana day or something-- at least that's what the stoners keep saying on social media.

I do think *something* can be done to mitigate the deaths-- at least the ones from children getting their hands on guns and shooting people or accidental shootings. I don't think any amount of gun reform would stop someone who is absolutely determined to carry out mass school executions. I've seen people talking about wanting to have armed guards at every school- but who would train them? If we have cops who panic and fire at a guy 20 times in his grandmother's backyard without even identifying themselves before shooting, what do they think will happen if they put more people with guns out there? There is no surefire test to tell if someone is a racist/bigot. It's just going to lead to more shootings-- and if it actually deterred school shooters, they would find other targets and pretty soon those places would have to be guarded. Nevermind the fact that we don't have the $ to train or pay the guards. Poorer school districts will have worse security. They already underpay the teachers. It's just not a viable solution.

The shooters just don't have respect for human life. It's not an easy fix. But I know that banning guns won't change that. Maybe they can crack down on these extremist camps/groups that are radicalizing the shooters.

I remember after 9-11 my father was very upset when they waived writ of habeus corpus. He saw that as unjust and dangerous.

Unfortunately, the fact that the newsmedia thrives on invoking terror does not help matters one bit. The more people panic and act out, the more juicy news stories they can get. They care far more about ratings than about people's lives.

I commend the kids who are marching and taking the initiative to exercise their free speech and so forth-- we need young people who care. Unfortunately, I do think that they are misguided. I support their right to protest/march etc and it's refreshing to see kids actually getting involved. But it won't change the underlying problem that we are more and more dependent on social media and faceless interactions where the human connection and empathy is being replaced with apathy or worse.

That said, the Russian oligarchs have bought out the NRA and corrupted it to it's core. There needs to be a lot of house-cleaning. The blackmail attempts on legislators and the vilifying of the children are not good at all. If they want to disagree, they can do so respectively, but they are trying to make these kids targets for radicals. That just isn't how sensible decent adults should behave.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

 

[highup]

Not sure about the Russian comment aimed the NRA. If it were the Russians, people would be dying from nerve gas poisoning.
If the NRA was doing what I'd do, I'd be for banning bump stocks, and make no comments criticizing or complaining about the kids protests. Yes the NRA has made some stupid comments as of late. They need to do better. Without the NRA, sling shots wouldn't even be legal in the US. They just need to speak better.
The kids, tho naive about the realities of anti-gun legislation and the fact that their efforts won't change bad people into good people bother me. I live in the world of reality not emotion. Reality is a hard concept for some to understand. I'm as sickened as everyone else when shootings or violence happens. So are gun owners, .....so are members of the NRA. ........I mean does anyone actually think NRA members support killing school children? Swatting at flies will never do anything about the number of flies.
..........so we need to find a way to deal with them. Realize we can do our best, but never eliminate them. It's called reality.

The "feel good" answer to good or evil looking guns is to ban them.
I have an AR 14 15 16 and 17. Take away my guns and you have accomplished what?
People dream of the perfect world. (keep in mind dream) ... many people can't rationalize the thought that crazy people will always exist and always do harm ......................forever and ever and ever till the end of time. You can dream of a day when everyone sings Michael Jackson's "We Are The World" ...or that Coca Cola song from the 70's "I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing" . I love both songs................ but singing them ain't gonna fix anything because it feels nice to sing. Got it? Feel good or reality? I chose reality.
Remove or make illegal one method, criminals will use another method. There is no stopping them with new laws and rules. They don't obey or follow rules so why add more rules administered or aimed only at law abiding citizens? I'm just shocked that this isn't obvious to all.
I'm still frustrated that nobody is mad at the shooters. .........it's the gun's fault.
What's a "sort of" fix?
....maybe a database shared by doctors, shrinks, sociologists, friends family, the FBI and other law enforcement. Maybe if a red flag is posted on this special law enforcement website ........A special FBI school specific website or wherever. Doctors, school teachers, family or friends could someh0w log in and make comments about violent threats. They would add up over time and make notes of violent threats and who made them. Each mention of your name into this special database would obviously generate more and more concern and maybe a visit from law to see if the concern is valid.................. a connect the dots program.
If I have zero listings and "Billy " has 47 listings and 5 mentioning school shootings................ how about the authorities have a sit dawn chat with "Billies" parents and school staff?
O-wait! ...we can't do that! ...that's an invasion of privacy.
Let's just ban guns to make it fair to everyone.
There's godda be something better to do than ban guns because a minuscule percentage of the population hates guns..................... that just ain't gonna end up well.

 

[Floorist]

The Institute of Medicine and the National Research Council released the results of their research through the CDC last month. Researchers compiled data from previous studies in order to guide future research on gun violence, noting that “almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year.”

As for gun control measures potentially having an effect on decreasing casualties, the report expresses uncertainty: “Whether gun restrictions reduce firearm-related violence is an unresolved issue,” and there is no evidence “that passage of right-to-carry laws decrease or increase violence crime.” It also stated that proposed “gun turn-in programs are ineffective.”

 

[zannej]

Highup, the Russians have many more tactics than just using nerve gas. They have infiltrated social media and obtained "kompromat" on many people around the world. Their goal is to cause chaos. They were the ones behind the Britain First movement that led to the Brexit vote. They were behind the development of the tea party and the movement of the GOP away from moderate conservatives to more extreme. People who have traced the money found that Russian oligarchs close to Putin are the main funders of the NRA-- the Russians also fund and encourage extremist groups. Russian agents pretend to be US citizens and go online to start groups and mobilize. They were responsible for a white supremacist rally and ANTIFA rally being held on the same day very near each other because they wanted violence to break out. It's standard ops for the FSB (which used to be the KGB). If they use hacking and blackmail/bribery instead of nerve gas it is harder to pin it directly on them and is not taken as seriously as a direct act of war (even though in a sense it is). The NRA is not only badmouthing the main kids leading the protests, but they are putting out photoshopped pictures showing one of the girls ripping up the Constitution to get people to hate her. They have labeled those kids as "the enemy" and put out videos with thinly veiled threats against their lives. NRA is supposed to be a non-profit organization so I don't even know how they can legally be involved in politics. Mind you, I know there are many NRA members who are good and reasonable people, but there are a few psychopaths and the spokespeople for the NRA are playing a dangerous game and should be kicked to the curb before they completely ruin the organization.

The only problem with having a situation where the number of reports/complaints about a person to get their gun rights taken away is that innocent people can be targeted for false reports/swatting/doxxing, etc. On Twitter, the Russian bots find people they don't like (generally who are reporting about their tactics) and convince multiple users to report them for supposed violations. They even make multiple accounts to attack specific people and get them barred from Twitter.

Right now, schools and police are going overboard about the gun thing in schools. A kid who mentioned that a mathematical symbol looked like a gun to him ended up being picked up by the police and suspended from school indefinitely (because kids claimed he mentioned a gun). Another kid who posted a photo of himself at a gun range or something on a family vacation was supposedly kicked out of school over it. But, then on the flip side, we have people making up fake stories to get people angry-- like saying that some kid was suspended for refusing to participate in the anti-gun march. I had some Facebook friends carrying on about it and the story wasn't even true. If they'd taken the time to actually look at the kids' suspension slip in the photo they'd see that he was suspended well before the march and it was for repeatedly refusing to follow instructions (he'd been told to go to a specific room and refused to go) and thus was barred from school for 24 hours.

People on both sides are being worked up in to a tizzy.

I do agree that it is not the fault of the guns. It's the irresponsible gun owners and the criminals who are ruining it for the rest of us.

 

[highup]

I'll wait till Mueller publishes his results in Russian involvement in the NRA................ that is if he ever ends his fishing expedition. I think he's holding out on ending the investigation until he retires.
What did the Russian dude contribute to the NRA, $1000? $50 million?
I don't think anyone trusts Putin farther than he could be thrown.

 

[zannej]

Highup, that's fair. Some people who know Mueller and get inside info have said that he has over 50 sealed indictments in the wings that are going to be unleashed once he gets an airtight case. This is the guy who took down "Teflon Don" John Gotti. He's also a decorated veteran. As for the speed of the investigation-- according to numerous law enforcement and retired law enforcement officials, organized crime cases take time-- sometimes years to complete. It takes patience and Mueller is said to be very meticulous. He likes to go after the smaller people first, find their crimes and then leverage them to give up information (that can be corroborated credibly) on people higher up the food chain. There are thousands of files to go through and it can be a long process.

I'm not sure on the exact amount of the funding from the oligarch, but reportedly, it was the majority of the NRA's funding. Now, there could be exaggerations.

There are some things that have already been found out, proven, and published-- things about Cambridge Analytica stealing information from Facebook users and opening them up to targeted ads and invites to covert Russian ops groups (posing as patriots).

Smart people don't trust Putin, but he knows how to play people. He lures people in with flattery, gets them in compromising positions on film, bribes them-- and if bribery doesn't work he blackmails them. By making the NRA look so heinous, he's rallying the opposition and scaring people in to trying to disarm the US citizens. Putin wants for us to have another Civil War and/or just kill each other with bipartisan fighting-- barring that, he wants the citizens disarmed so we will be more vulnerable for attack. A line from the song "Anthem" (from the musical Chess) pretty much sums it up: "Let man's petty nations tear themselves apart"

He's one evil sadistic creep, but he's very intelligent. But, he overstepped and eventually it will come back to bite him. Hopefully there won't be too much damage our country and Constitution by the time that happens. We just need to pull together, find common ground, and refuse to be divided despite our disagreements/differences.

A thought I just had-- that I know would not go over well with anti-gun people-- but could make sense. In school starting with maybe high school they can teach gun safety. Let the kids practice with fake guns-- maybe video game ones first-- learn how to hold them properly, not to point them at other people, not to put fingers on the trigger, never treat them as a toy, how to safely store them so small children can't get to them, etc. Parents can have the option to opt their kids out of it, but at least kids who's parents are willing to let them learn can have that available so hopefully more kids can be taught to respect guns and understand how dangerous they can be if not handled properly. But, I also think more needs to be done to get children to humanize other people instead of viewing them as faceless entities. That is going to be more challenging. On another front, I think there should be more accountability for people who don't properly secure their guns to keep them away from their children. No perfect solutions, but it could prevent some deaths.

 

[highup]

Sounds more like stuff I hear on Coast to Coast Live at 2am.
I can't seriously see Putin planning to start wwIII, and taking over the world with any hopes of his own survival.
Not saying he isn't dangerous. I think he enjoys toying with people to feed his ego. ...and he's obviously good at it.

 

[zannej]

I'm not sure what Coast to Coast Live is. LOL. Sounds like a radio show though.
I think what Putin wants is to make other people fear WWIII, panic, and run around like headless chickens and focus so much on petty bickering within themselves so that they don't focus on him and pay attention to the things that he is doing. Because if other countries are too busy with internal problems, he thinks they won't come together to squash him. I do think that his ego is also a big part of it.

 

[highup]

You must not listen to am radio.
I do, so that I can keep up with the latest alien and government conspiracies are. It's the most listened to radio talk show in it's time spot.......... late night.
Think Art Bell. He retired in 2012 or thereabouts.

"Topics discussed include the near-death experience, climate change, cosmology, quantum physics, remote viewing, hauntings, contact with extraterrestrials, psychic reading, metaphysics, science and religion, conspiracy theories, Area 51, Ouija boards, crop circles, cryptozoology, Bigfoot, the Hollow Earth hypothesis, and science fiction literature, among others"

 

[highup]

You must not listen to am radio.
I do, so that I can keep up with the latest alien and government conspiracies are. It's the most listened to radio talk show in it's time spot.......... late night.
Think Art Bell. Art retired a loooong time ago. George Noory is the current host and has been for 15 or more years. Maybe even since 9/11

"Topics discussed include the near-death experience, climate change, cosmology, quantum physics, remote viewing, hauntings, contact with extraterrestrials, psychic reading, metaphysics, science and religion, conspiracy theories, Area 51, Ouija boards, crop circles, cryptozoology, Bigfoot, the Hollow Earth hypothesis, and science fiction literature, among others"

Sometimes interesting and entertaining, sometimes bizarre. Like a box of chocolits...... ya never know what yur gonna get. George is on Sirius radio too.

 

[zannej]

LOL. Ah. I don't listen to the radio at all.
I used to when I was younger but at some point I just stopped-- I think it was when every single time I turned on the radio it was a song from N'Sync-- the same friggin' song every time! LOL. A friend of mine asked me why I wouldn't turn the radio on. I told him. He said "Come on, let's just try-- turn it on". I turned it on. It was that song. I shut the radio off.

I know it sounds like crazy conspiracy theory stuff, but sometimes fact is stranger than fiction. Btw, the name of the person who contributed to the NRA is named Alexander Torshin. But, regardless of whether or not the NRA is corrupt, it doesn't mean we need to revoke any amendments (I saw people calling to revoke the 2nd amendment and wholeheartedly disagreed with them) or leave things as-is. There are things that can be done to reduce accidental deaths and to make it harder for criminals to get guns. But, I don't think it means law-abiding citizens should be punished. There is just no perfect solution.

 

[Nick]

The 2nd amendment was written for the slave owners back when .. It was so they could keep the slaves in line ..
They had no Idea of the tech that we would have today ..

 

[havasu]

Trump orange. I love that.