leveling floor for laminate

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I would like to use a product like planipatch or levelquick however the line, "Do not apply over self-stick tile, presswood, particleboard, flakeboard or similar types of dimensionally unstable substrate." is what stops me, would luan be considered one of these types of " dimensionally unstable substrate." I will admit I really do not understand the term "dimensionally unstable substrate" to me it sounds like, maybe a rug, grass, a section of rotting wood, but luan over 60 year old vinly, over 1/2" pressed board, on top of 1" floor boards, seems to be rigid enough, maybe I will get a small bag tomorrow, but how do I know that this lever is laying flat? Do I rent or buy one of those 4' trowles you see on TV or just use a 2x4 to spread it out?
Dimensionally stable can mean a wide range of things. To some degree, it may depend on what you are applying to the finished surface. If it was a fully adhered vinyl floor, you would want to follow the manufacturers terms because vinyl is very unforgiving. If you apply a filler or leveler on top of a peel and stick tile, the tile edges will curl up a little bit as the filler drys and shrinks.

Most fillers will adhere to particle board like gangbusters, so unless you are doing a deep fill over particle board (pressed board), I don't see a big problem as long as it is nailed well. You wouldn't want to do a 1/2 inch fill of self leveler over particle board....... way too much water involved in that situation. You might get away fine to do a fill in two layers. I think a first layer like 1/8 might cap a luan plywood well enough without disturbing it, and later to add a heavier coat one once the thin coat has dried.

Rules are made to be broken, but experience is what teaches you the limits. I won't promote hack work at all, but if you are doing laminate or pre-finished wood flooring, you will not need to apply the same strict quality levels as when you install vinyl flooring.

So if you are applying the filler simply to level out the last 12 inches at an outside wall area where you will be installing a floating floor material, then the filler manufacturers strict requirements are a bit less important. That said, you still want a stable substructure that's well nailed and not moving up and down. In this situation, a little common sense.
 
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Got it, why did't I think of searching you tube? Thanks for information. I guess I'll be taking to floor up tomorrow, after I try a few things but I am guessing the leveling is going to be the answer.
 
Got it, why did't I think of searching you tube? Thanks for information. I guess I'll be taking to floor up tomorrow, after I try a few things but I am guessing the leveling is going to be the answer.

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Demo is usually much easier than people think using the right weapons. When it's not though it's REALLY not. It's ALWAYS the better/best alternative where it's feasible. Floating systems are designed because of asbestos related problems that preclude cheap and easy demo and for those other kinds of floors that are extremely dusty and difficult to bust out clean and smooth like. For floating laminates you just need stable/secure and fairly flat. The whole idea of dimensionally stable only comes in if you want to pour cement based patch on top of God only knows what's under there slip sliding away with the shifting of the structure, humidity and temperature change.

If you tear out up to 1" of existing flooring and underlayment you will NOT want to correct the problems with self-leveling underlayment. You can correct the problems as you build the floor back up with layers of plywood and various shimming materials. You have ZERO idea what's going to be necessary til you see what's under there.

Take some pictures and post them up. Work CLEAN and SAFE!
 
Incognito, I was under the impression that I could not use floor leveler on Luan, after I fixed the major depressions in the floor, I figured it would be flat enough, but I now feel ( after laying the whole floor ) that the floor is not flat enough, however it was suggested that I make sure the Groves of the board are free of and foreign objects. I will take up the floor marking each board on the back using a letter and number system A1, A2, A3: B1,B2,B3 etc...
When I have most of the floor up I will start to relay it making sure I am getting a good connection with each board, if I find I am getting the same results, I will take up all the boards and roll up the underlayment, and use the Levelquick.
In hindsight, I wish I just took up the whole floor and refinished what is underneath, but I have already purchased and cut the laminate floor and underlayment.
Maybe the initial problem was that the first time we did the floor, we put luan over a Vinyl floor that was in really bad shape, if I had to guess the material of that floor, I would say it is a combination of Vinyl, Tar and Asbestos. it was hi-Tech at that time!

Thanks for all your help, I have a game plan to tackle this floor again, Ill check back to see if more ideas come up. I hope the next post will be the finished floor looking good!

Have a great day
John

This is the vinly floor that is under the luan. it just a small section,

IMG_0430.jpg
 
Don't give up on the idea of demolitions. It's a matter of whether it's EASY to peel off or the underlayment beneath can be pry barred off simply or if this flooring and underlayment is going to be a BEAR to demo out.

Just go in the corner and in the middle in a few spots and see what's what.

Then READ your local ordinances on handling asbestos. It's NOT AIDS, Bubonic Plague or Chernobyl for Christ sakes. You're ALLOWED to handle it with reasonable precautions as a home owner. BIG DIFFERENCE in the laws for contractors.

If it's a BEAR, you lay overtop and start considering CEMENT based patch.

If it's easy money to tear out you do the demo by the book and rebuild with layers of plywood tits/dead nuts flat. It's really that simple.
 
One thing that might work to stabilize the luan enough to accept the floor patch, is to roll on a coat of Kill z oil based primer/sealer. It could provide enough water resistance to prevent the water in the leveling compound from delaminating the plys of the plywood.
 
I took the floor up ( the new laminate ) I tried to lay the flooring again using some of your suggestions, but I have found again that in the 3rd course the boards would not line up square, I used a t-square to keep me honest. So my next plan of action is to level the floor more flat. HighUp, you mentioned Killz, would use this along with the LevelQuick primer? I may try to get a more qualified person to level this floor , I am out of my skill set with leveler.
 
Old Home,
It sounds like your having more of an actual installation problem than your are a leveling problem. I use this technique all the time but for different reasons that I am suggesting it to you. Try and assemble three or four rows away from the wall and then slide the entire assembled panel up to the expansion spacers along the starting wall. I think you will find that it will solve your problems without all the leveling troubles.
 
I took the floor up ( the new laminate ) I tried to lay the flooring again using some of your suggestions, but I have found again that in the 3rd course the boards would not line up square, I used a t-square to keep me honest. So my next plan of action is to level the floor more flat. HighUp, you mentioned Killz, would use this along with the LevelQuick primer? I may try to get a more qualified person to level this floor , I am out of my skill set with leveler.

Here's a link to the Levelquick primer. It says not to use it on luan plywood.

Limitations to the Product
Do not bond directly to hardwood, Luan plywood, particle board,
parquet, cushion or sponge-back vinyl flooring, metal, fiberglass,
plastic or OSB panels.


http://www.custombuildingproducts.com/TDS/TDS-234.pdf

It's a latex product...... meaning water based. Water and luan are not the best of friends since luan in not an exterior product. A little moisture for a short period might not bother the luan, but when filler is applied, it will take a while to fully dry, possibly creating a warping and delamination problem because it stays damp for so long.

My thoughts are to seal with the oil based version of Killz to create a moisture barrier on the luan, and then apply the filler product.

(Others. please correct me if you disagree with what I am offering for advice.)

I have never used Levelquick, but if you are using it, it's a self leveler. I have not followed this topic close enough to know if you plan to use Levelquick or another Custom floor filler product.
A self leveler and will make the floor level AND flat. If your house is not level........... a self leveler will migrate to the low area creating a level AND area, but you may only want a flat surface.
I floor filler can be applied to an un-level area to make it flat.

Here's a quick sketch that shows what I mean when a self leveler is applied to an unlevel floor in a room. Hoe it makes sense.
You said the home is old.............. so if the room or rooms you are working in are level you will be OK using a self leveler. Otherwise, use a floor patch in the low areas and screed it flat.

Level and flat.JPG
 
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Ok guys, I am now at a loss , my understanding is that I can not use a self leveler on luan, pulling up the whole is looking like the only solution, unless I go over the existing floor with a exterior grade ply-wood but that is going to make the floor to high for the exterior door to open. I do not know what to do! I did see a product called floor patch made byhttp://www.dap.com/product_details.aspx?product_id=341 DAP that looked like it may be a solution ?
 
One thing to remember is that these floor leveling products are not going to be subjected to the same conditions for your particular purpose. Getting a strong bond and a perfectly smooth surface are required for vinyl flooring. For you, the filler needs to stay put and not start breaking up and crumbling off the floor below the laminate. The laminate and it's cushion will spread out and displace the weight of you walking over it, compared to walking directly on the filler.
This is new construction. An new addition to a home. I was installing carpet and tho it's more forgiving, I went a bit overboard because this new area was 12 to 14 feet wide as I recall, and a major walkway and light source. Shingles would not have worked for leveling because stretching the carpet would have lifted the carpet 1/2 inch off the floor.
So this new addition had a dip in the center of the floor. They had not installed underlayment and the base was already on when I arrived. Contractor wouldn't put down underlayment so I improvised and got it pretty close to level where it needed it most.

This shows how far out of level it was......... about 5/8 of an inch. The entire room did not have this same dip........... only in this wide doorway area where it mattered most.

I will clean up a few photos and post them to show what I did.

IMG_0001 angle screed showing level_filtered 700w.jpg
 
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I added a half moon shaped section of 3/8 plywood then feathered filler from the old underlayment to the edge of the 3/8 plywood. Then I made another screed from the edge of the 3/8 plywood about 3 feet out onto the new OSB. I made at least one more screed to blend this farther out into the new addition.

The half moon piece of plywood took up what would have been a very deep fill of patching compound............ and plywood also hardens faster. ;) Adding the plywood for fill material is better anyway.

I had an odd job many years ago where the last 4 feet of a small building sharply dropped 1 1/2 inches.

I used layers of 1/2" 3/8" and 1/4" as filler material before applying the leveling compound. I'd have attacked that job differently today, but it worked. It was a stand alone 12' by 16' out building used as a kids play room or art room.

....anyway, back to the photos. I floated out further the next morning and it ended up almost good enough for a laminate floor.......... one more layer would have done it. :D

In the first fill, I mixed the filler up a little too wet. When it was 1/2 way set up, I made some light score marks in the filler as sort of 'control' joints. Fillers can shrink and crack a little sometimes, especially when you mix them both too wet and too thick.
Overkill............... yea a wee bit, but thats just me ;)

Do you notice it's not all that pretty? It needs to be flat, not pretty for what you are doing.
I used a product called Webcrete 95 for this old job. I still use the product. Floor covering shops would be where you get this stuff. Not usually found at a lumber yard or home center.

I mix a lot in smaller batches using 5 qt plastic mixing pails and a spiral paint mixer used in a drill. This product starts setting up fairly fast if you mix it thick. Tool cleanup needs to get done soon because it sticks pretty good and doesn't rinse of with a simple dousing from a hose.

I used a 6 foot section of 1/8" thick 2X2 aluminum angle for this one. I have 2 footers and a 4 footer also. These are nice because they don't flex a lot.

You might find a couple of layers like I did here much easier to control than trying to make it perfect in one shot.

Ardex Feather Finish is another product, but a little more spendy. You might buy a bag and

IMG_0007 first layer of filler_filtered 700.jpg


IMG_0009_dried filler close up filtered 700.jpg


IMG_0012 finished leveling towards window_filtered 700.jpg


IMG_0013_filtered one more would have done it.jpg
 
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Hello,

Yes,I am back again! I have been trying to figure out away to lay this floor down correctly, mostly trying to learn how to get my floor flat.
So this is were I am:
I have a small room about 12x12, with Luan down on it, I have marked the center of the room and used a 6' level to see access the flatness, this was a lot easier then I through, once I got down on the floor. LOL !
I have found the trouble area's, below I have a crude drawing made with Open Office software ( it is like MS Office but it is free! )
In the upper left hand corner you can see an area approx. 6'x4' close the the center the largest impression is a 1/4". The outside of this valley starts at flat and progresses to 1/8 " to finally 1/4"
In the lower half of the room, (this is where I started to lay the floor, now I see why it did not lay well.)
This area is approx. 9' x 3.5' about 3.5' feet in, is the largest impression of 5/8", then slowly gets to flat after 5 feet or so.
So my new plan is i could build up with ply wood and luan. I would like to try the Floor Lever but I know, for me it is not going to work.
Any more ideas guys?

Thanks John

Untitled 1.jpg
 
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This shows how far out of level it was......... about 5/8 of an inch. The entire room did not have this same dip........... only in this wide doorway area where it mattered most.

I will clean up a few photos and post them to show what I did.

Looks like it's pretty even steven there buddy. I think all you needed was to sheath the entire addition, maybe some mud under the lowest spot.
 
I use Henry 547 with the 546 additive. You can get it up to 1 1/2" in one pour and go down to a feather edge. Very easy to work with, just make sure you have your straight edge close by.
 
I have been trying to find some info on the Henry547 to see if it can be used on top of luan, but can not find it anywhere. Do you know if it can, I am temped to use the level quick but the bag says no! And I hate to open that can of worms.
 
I use it on wood substrates all the time. It says right on the package can be used on wood substrates. Make sure you use the additive and NOT water.
 
H2-0 the newest self smoothing and leveling technology.

[ame]http://youtu.be/8woEjrS4sjg[/ame]

Levelingcements.com
 
I am so dumb , I don't know if that was a joke or an actual product. Either way it went over my head.
Sorry? Maybe that was your point? Lol
 

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