"Luxury" Content: Suppose I surrender my ethics...

[Al from Durham]

As some of you might remember, I like VCT in kitchens. Kitchens should have VCT. VCT is what kitchens should look like.

But the Brain Control Marketers have apparently convinced the whole world that they need "Luxury" floors, despite the transparency of the manipulation. "Luxury". "Luxury". For Pete's sake.

I hate the cheap vinyl that this house came with, and I hate the whole designed-for-rubes "Luxury" thing even more, but I gotta face the issue of resale value and maybe install a "Luxury" floor in this kitchen. Which will be laughing at me the whole time, as it does to you.

So what do I need to know to install this awful stuff? I had an old and experienced floor guy come in, and he said that "Luxury" is the only thing his guys will install, which suggests to me that it's effortless to install.

I hated the floor before and I'll hate the floor after, so that won't change, except I'll be ashamed of myself, so that's worse.

I expect pushback. Go ahead, I'm used to it. But before you do, take a moment to contemplate where you're coming from.
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[Commercial Floor Rep]

For the first 40 years it was around, VCT became popular because it was the absolute cheapest floor you could buy. When that wasn't cheap enough, they started making "shaved" products that were even cheaper. Due to changes in the industry over the past 8 years, there is only one domestic supplier of VCT remaining (Armstrong). Both Mannington and Tarkett have closed their domestic operations. Tarkett is still available as they purchased a plant in Mexico (Vinylasa) and are now producing all of their VCT there and importing it back into the U.S. As a result, the current cost of VCT is basically the same price as a low-end glue-down Luxury tile or plank BUT with the added bonus of having to apply a finish to it to keep it looking good. It has no "built-in" wear layer. So, without any type of finish it will pit and dull and look like hell pretty quickly depending on the traffic it gets. In a home, it might take longer to occur because the traffic is much lower, but it WILL happen.

The only thing I've seen VCT used for residentially in the past 30 years is government subsidized housing and really low-end apartments as it's considered too institutional looking for residential use by the vast majority of consumers.

If it was such a great product, the manufacturers would not be closing plants here in the U.S. to build LVT or LVP plants.

The reality is that quality glue-down LVT will perform as well long-term as VCT. In my career I've sold, specified, and installed everything from a 6'x6' residential bathroom to half a billion-dollar hospital (yeah, that's billion with a B). I have first-hand experience with LVT in heavy commercial installations that have been down and are still performing well at 20+ years old.

The term Luxury in the wording was originally introduced by one manufacturer many years ago. Since this type of flooring is different in ASTM specification than Solid Vinyl Tile or VCT, the term was "adopted" as a simple way to refer to the category as opposed to solid vinyl tile or VCT. As the category grew there have been further differentiations in the terminology with regard to whether the product is glued down directly to the substrate or installed in a floating installation system. The floating products are technically not Luxury Vinyl Tile, but have been segmented off into a newer category called "multi-layer resilient flooring". Similar to the laminate which is overseen by the North American Laminate Flooring Association (NALFA), the hardwood category which is overseen by the National Wood Flooring Association (NWFA), and ceramic tile, porcelain and stone which is overseen by the Tile Council of North America (TCNA), multi-layered resilient flooring now has its own governing body the MFA which surprisingly stands for Multilayer Flooring Association. The organizations are made up of the manufacturers and other key raw material partners to develop manufacturing and installation guidelines around each of these categories so that products can be compared with some degree of accuracy based on specific qualities.

While I certainly respect your opinion on what you like, rest assured it is NOT the norm that most people would accept or want in a home today. The visuals in the better-quality products are extremely realistic. I've actually been at trade shows where a manufacturer intentionally installed hardwood, laminate, and LVT right next to one another on the floor and watched people have to bend down and touch the floor to tell which one it was. I'm not talking about the stuff that they sell at box stores. The products sold there are NOT the same quality of product that specialty flooring retailers sell. The specialty flooring retailers have and can sell those products, but they typically avoid them because they are problematic in most cases. Box stores like Home Depot, Lowes, and Menards have exclusive deals with the manufacturers that they work with that lock the manufacturer into certain pricing and as a result the products sold in the box stores, even if called the same thing, are not of the same quality. The list of "Requirements to do business with XYZ" box stores would choke a horse. I know because I'm at a level in the industry where we have been connected with them in the past. As a vendor for any of them you CANNOT ever change pricing without their approval. That's right, THEY say whether or not you can have a price increase. As a result, as manufacturing costs increase on a given product, the product has to be cheapened as the boxes will not accept a price increase from a vendor. Usually the only time one goes through is if it's an industry wide increase that every vendor they have is experiencing such as the one for lumber during COVID.

Comparing flooring by using the box stores as a guideline is akin to comparing real body shops to Earl Shive. They are not in the same category.

The problem is that people go into those places see a similar looking product to what is sold at the specialty flooring retailers, and think it's the same strictly based off of looks alone. I can assure you 100% it is NOT.

My point in explaining all of this is that you're drawing some conclusions about the industry that simply are not correct. I know you probably think that I'm probably just defending the industry because I'm on the inside, but I've made nearly 1000 posts on this site and many more on other sites as well and if you care to go back and read through my posts, you will see that I will tell you what I think based on what I have done with a product, not what marketing hype and common accepted practices are. I put hands on these products, and I intentionally test them under stress to make sure that what I'm saying is as accurate as it can be. I often call out marketing hype surrounding the terminology used and people placing too much faith in warranties. So, I'm not a company man by any means.

The bottom line: Is LVT the be all, end all product today, tomorrow and forever? No, but it's a heck of an upgrade over the look and performance of VCT for most people and about 99.9% of the usage cases that I have experienced over the past 30 years. Again, all due respect to your opinion and preference in style and design. The vast majority of style and design choices are made by women. The market has shown that they simply do not like the look or maintenance associated with VCT, at least since about 1960 anyway. Flooring is very much one of those areas where you get what you pay for is very real. If a product is .20 a foot difference, there is a reason for that .20 difference. They have cut something somewhere which will ultimately affect the longevity and performance of the floor. This is even more prevalent at the lower end of the product spectrum than it is at the premium end.

If you want a good luxury vinyl plank or tile product that will last in your installation:

• Use a glue-down product
• Minimum 12mil but preferably 20 mil urethane modified wear layer. (Note: a mil is .001" not a millimeter).
  • Should be modified with one of the following: quartzite, ceramic bead, aluminum oxide, or diamond.
  • Straight urethane is very stain resistant but incredibly soft, this is the reason for the modifer.
• 2.5mm minimum overall thickness (3.0 to 3.2mm would be better but can get "boardy" if you go too thick) (*Note: In this case I am referring to the metric millimeter not mils)
• New 1/4" underlayment, installed at a 90 degree angle to the original subfloor.
  • This will provide a smooth, sound, surface and prevent any remaining glue residual in the existing plywood from interacting with the new floor.
  • This stuff you used as a test could not only be a potential bond breaker for a new adhesive, but can have long term impact on the adhesive used to laminate the plywood in the substrate. It's best to prevent an issue now and do the job correctly buy adding a layer of new underlayment.
• Portland cement-based floor patch should be used as needed based on the installation requirements of the flooring manufacturer for flatness as well as the underlayment panel manufacturer's guidelines for addressing the joints between the panels.
• There are several glue-down LVT manufacturer's as well as adhesive manufacturers who incorrectly recommend installing glue-down LVT or LVP using pressure sensitive adhesive. In my testing, this is 100% incorrect. Glue down should be installed using a semi-wet installation method and the appropriate notch trowel for subfloor porosity recommended by the manufacturer of the flooring NOT the adhesive manufacturer.
  • The flooring manufacturer's recommendations always win out over an adhesive manufacturer.

These recommendations will assure a high-degree of success in the installation of a glue-down luxury vinyl flooring. Cutting any steps or value-engineering a "Frankenstein" solution will decrease the chances of success. The call is ultimately yours and yours alone.

All the best in whatever you decide!

CFR

 

[Al from Durham]

Thank you for your kind and generous response.

I probably should use the horrible pretentious "Luxury" stuff, since I have to consider resale value. One more distasteful thing that people have to do in this increasingly synthetic world, I guess. Conformity doesn't come naturally to me.

A floor lasts 20 years when a mortgage lasts 30. I mean, new housing construction is only intended to last 20 years at best, and this is all part of that. And nowadays even new plywood falls apart.

May I impose on you for advice on brand names, sources, and price ranges that I should be looking for?
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[Commercial Floor Rep]

I'd take a look at Armstrong's Dryback glue-down LVT with Diamond 10 coating, Mannington's Adura Flex, Shaw's 20 mil products would also be acceptable. For a lesser-known brand names Happy Feet, Karndean, and Adore Floors all make good 20 mil glue down product with high performing wear layers. Not a huge fan of Tarkett or Centiva but they have products in that same realm.

As far as where, just do a search for local flooring retailers. Carpet One, Flooring America, or even "Joe Blow's Floor store". Anything but the big boxes or lumber liquidators (LL). A retailer who specializes in flooring is the main thing.

Price is going to vary a bit from market to market. @C.J. might be able to give some advice on that front as I believe he's done business down in that part of the country. My guess is between $5.50 and $8.50 / sf would not be out of line for the flooring. Shaw has some suggested retail pricing on their website for their products, but dealers aren't necessarily locked into that and may offer better deals based on their affiliation with one manufacturer or another. Retailers tend to belong to particular buying group programs that give them pricing advantages with one particular manufacturer or another with the major brands like Shaw, Mohawk, and Mannington.

Again, all the best with your project!

 

[Al from Durham]

Just as an aside, the kitchen in question has all dark old knotty pine walls and cabinets, and a grotesque knotty pine valence with curlicues cut in the bottom over the window. VCT tiles would be too high class for an environment like that. The floor is the LEAST of that room's problems.

Update:
Hoo boy, that "Luxury" floor is going to look out-of-place in that hillbilly kitchen. Do they make "Luxury" flooring that looks like VCT?

 

[C.J.]

Just as an aside, the kitchen in question has all dark old knotty pine walls and cabinets, and a grotesque knotty pine valence with curlicues cut in the bottom over the window. VCT tiles would be too high class for an environment like that. The floor is the LEAST of that room's problems.

There must be something wrong with me cus I love those old curlicue pieces above the kitchen window.

 

[Al from Durham]

Hey, I like VCT and everybody says that there's something wrong with me.

 

[Commercial Floor Rep]

Just as an aside, the kitchen in question has all dark old knotty pine walls and cabinets, and a grotesque knotty pine valence with curlicues cut in the bottom over the window. VCT tiles would be too high class for an environment like that. The floor is the LEAST of that room's problems.

Update:
Hoo boy, that "Luxury" floor is going to look out-of-place in that hillbilly kitchen. Do they make "Luxury" flooring that looks like VCT?

Not exactly, but Mannington does have 12"x24" tile visuals if you don't like the look of wood planks. They introduced a new series in the tile looks called Fresco last year and it's been selling very well. In fact, it's done so well they are introducing several new colors and variations of it this year. Probably will be my next new floor when I change, I think it's that good looking of a product.

https://www.mannington.com/resident...raflex/aduraflex-rectangle-tile/Fresco/FXR490

 

[Al from Durham]

Oh, thanks....but...

Textured? Mom told me that you can't clean textured floors clean, and my experience is that she was right.

 

[Commercial Floor Rep]

Oh, thanks....but...

Textured? Mom told me that you can't clean textured floors clean, and my experience is that she was right.

Your mom didn't have the advantage of a urethane wear layer. Back then they used floor finishes that stayed on the floor, and you had to strip and re-finish them occasionally. That's because those floors mainly used a raw PVC wear layer and could be easily scratched or scuffed. That would have been true years ago, but not today. The texturing on this product is not that aggressive. It's just enough to add depth and realism to the visual. It's also got an incredibly hard and scratch resistant finish on it.

Take a look at this when you have a moment, and you'll see what I mean...

https://www.mannington.com/residential/residential/take-the-quarter-test

This would also be accurate for the other floors I mentioned previously, not just Mannington.

As a funny side note, one of our reps starts out every year with a fresh quarter and he uses the same one all year when he does this demo. He's usually well over half way through the quarter by the end of the year to where he can barely hang on to it without rubbing off some skin. This is all due to the mineral additive that's made into the wear layer (urethane topcoat) of the product. So even though it's incredibly thin, it's amazingly durable.

For daily cleaning just use a dry microfiber dust mop head or a regular broom. Microfiber works better because it has thousands of times more surface area in contact with the floor and is small enough to get down into the emobssing without an issue.

If you need to do a more thorough cleaning, then all you need to clean a floor with a modified urethane finish is a microfiber mop (Zwifter) and a neutral cleaner. I would recommend just using 1/4 cup of ammonia to a gallon of hot water. If you need something a little stronger, you can increase the ammonia to 1/2 cup per gallon of hot water. You can buy a gallon of ammonia from dollar general for like $2. On today's floors, you never want to use anything with any type of surfactant or that will leave any residues. Many of the older cleaning products have things in them that remain on the floor after using them because older floors needed that additional protection. No dish soap, no murphy's oil soap, no mop-n-glo, nothing like that should be used on today's flooring.

You can buy pre-mixed neutral cleaners at the store, but they are essentially ammonia water with some scent and coloring. In some cases, you'll pay $5.00 for a quart spray bottle that you could make yourself for less than .50.

Some people still use white vinegar as well. I'm not a fan of that though, because vinegar can contain other organic compounds (sugars) that can leave a trace residual on the floor. Those residuals can cause dulling and build-up over time. Ammonia doesn't have any other additives, and it evaporates completely without leaving a residual. Just a broom, a microfiber mop, and neutral cleaner.

I would also not recommend using a traditional cotton-head string mop. Those are not made for embossed floors, and the diameter of the strings and fibers will simply ride over the top of the texturing and swirl around dirty water, and they will look terrible when you're done. Again, older technology made for older types of floors.

We've had similar embossing on our products for literally decades now and I just don't get problems. We'll occasionally get a maintenance call and virtually every single time, it's because the person has used an older cleaning product, like Murphy's, because that's what they were told worked best years ago. We help guide them to remove the buildup and then show them the correct way to clean the floor. Boom, they are off and running. It's probably the number one area that most retail flooring salespeople forget to talk about with their customers and probably one of the most important. The technology has changed in the products we use today so much, that what was true back then no longer works well today.

I've actually had to do seminars with our local commercial maintenance companies because they didn't understand many of the changes in technology and were trying to put finishes (wax) on these newer floors and it was an absolute disaster. They were doing and selling things that the consumer did not need and causing issues. Those problems have also mostly disappeared unless someone new comes into the market and hasn't been properly trained or isn't up to speed with things.

Hope that helps.

 

[Al from Durham]

And who would ever know if nobody told them. Thanks.

Ammonia absolutely destroys lacquer finishes. I wish I could have learned some of these things without ruining people's stuff.

 

[havasu]

Not exactly, but Mannington does have 12"x24" tile visuals if you don't like the look of wood planks. They introduced a new series in the tile looks called Fresco last year and it's been selling very well. In fact, it's done so well they are introducing several new colors and variations of it this year. Probably will be my next new floor when I change, I think it's that good looking of a product.

https://www.mannington.com/resident...raflex/aduraflex-rectangle-tile/Fresco/FXR490

Wow. This is exactly what we are looking for. Anyone know the retail price i could get 2000 sq ft of it?

 

[Commercial Floor Rep]

@havasu I just sent you a DM.

 

[havasu]

I got it. Thank you!

 

[Al from Durham]

Doesn't that just kinda look like a dirty floor?

 

[Commercial Floor Rep]

Remember the old "One of these things is not like the others...from Sesame Street..." Well one of these is real (expensive) porcelain tile and the others aren't (Adura Fresco). Can you tell which one is which??? (Sorry guys, I didn't have my expensive cameras with me today, just my little Oly OM-1).

 

[havasu]

I have to laugh. So, I went ahead and ordered two samples today. They cost me $2.50 a piece. Now consider if you will, they will ship me two full size 1' x 2' (planks). If that's the case, what is to stop me from ordering 1,000 $2.50 samples? Hmm, might be worth a try? That would mean $1.25 a sq ft, free shipping AND no taxes?